Shun Overpriced Knives

October 27th, 2011

The Shakti Stones of Cooking

A while back, I mentioned Mundial knives. I used some while working in a commercial kitchen, and I thought they were great, so I bought a few.

I bought a Santoku with a hollow-ground blade (divots running down the side to make food fall off), a 14″ slicing knife with the same feature, and a cleaver. I was hoping the cleaver would be as good as the amazing $10 job I got from The Wok Shop, only stainless.

The cleaver turned out to be pretty heavy. You can’t cut vegetables with a thick knife, so the cleaver didn’t work for me. A thick knife will be hard to push through tough vegetables like potatoes and yuca, regardless of how sharp it is. You’ll have to push until the food gives, and then you may cut yourself when the knife finally busts loose. My Wok Shop cleaver is very thin, so it’s easy to cut film-like slices of just about anything. The Mundial cleaver seems to be very well made, but it’s not tough enough for meat, and it’s too thick for vegetables. I decided to follow up with a stainless Forschner cleaver, which is much better, but still a little thicker than I would like. The Wok Shop still rules. Best kitchen knife I’ver ever owned.

The santoku is also well made, but it just doesn’t work for me. Something about the shape of the blade. My regular knife is a Forschner chef’s knife, and it’s perfect. The curved edge works wonders when you rock the blade. It’s thin enough to cut vegetables well. The handle is great. It takes an edge in a few seconds. The santoku is too straight, and food doesn’t really fall off the sides of the blade. It doesn’t have enough weight to work for things like mincing. I may go back and order a chef’s knife. The Mundials I fell in love with were chef’s knives. It’s funny; many Americans are convinced that the Japanese are always right, but I’ve found European-style chef’s knives to be much more useful than santokus.

The slicer is great. Zero complaints. I probably should have bought a smaller one, though. They come in three sizes, and I went with 14″ because I have had problems with slicing knives being too short. I think the best answer is to have a long one and a short one.

I went on the web and said a few things about the Shun knives (made by Kershaw) that I had bought. I didn’t expect to make Shun-lovers angry, but that’s what happened. It’s funny how people will get angry when you criticize a product. You would think they had given birth to their knives.

I had a Shun santoku and a cleaver, plus a Tojiro nakiri. I found them useless. The Shun site states that Shun knives are dishwasher-safe, but chunks fell out of my knife when I washed it. The cleaver was short, way too thick, and poorly balanced, and after the santoku incident, I knew I could not put it in the dishwasher. The nakiri was just stupid. I cannot understand why they exist. Thick and fragile. I gave away all three knives. They were taking up space and doing nothing for me.

Shun-worshipers told me I was a “moron” for putting my knife in the dishwasher. I guess Doug Kershaw is a moron, too, because his website says the knives can take it.

I don’t get the Japanese-knife-adulation fad. The knives are extremely well made, and the quality is attractive, but they just don’t perform. What good is a tool that doesn’t work? You could make a chef’s knife with a gold blade if you wanted, and I’m sure it would be pretty, but what’s the point if you can’t cut anything with it?

The Kershaw site says that while Doug will not actually put a voodoo hex on you for using the dishwasher, it’s better to hand-wash. And they even give instructions for doing this:

The best and easiest method is simply to wash the knife using a damp sponge and mild soap right after you use it. Make sure you do not run the sponge-or your hand-directly along the blade at any time. Towel-dry the knife and let it air dry for a few minutes before retuning [sic] to its proper storage.

Good Lord. Is it a knife or a sick baby? Here’s what I do with my Forschners and Mundials: toss in dishwasher, turn on, flop in front of TV. They never chip. They are just as sharp as Shuns. They don’t cost much. You can even get them with color-coded indestructible NSF handles. The choice is obvious.

I’m thinking I should get a couple more chef’s knives, so I will be able to go back and forth between ingredients without spreading germs. Imagine buying enough Shuns to do that. Three knives…$400. I could have forty carbon-steel cleavers for that.

Picture yourself working with, say, four Shuns. When you’re done, you have to pick each one up, find the “mild soap,” wash it the way nurses washed Richard Pryor after he burned himself, set it aside to air dry (!), and then put it away in your special Japanese knife kimono or whatever. I don’t know about you, but I work hard in the kitchen. I’m not just slicing “boil-in bags.” When the night is over, I want OUT. I can clean four Forschners in four seconds. Dump in machine; turn on.

I will never buy a sissy container to protect my knives, unless I need something to carry them around. I use a magnetic bar on the wall, just like a real chef.

I still have to hand-wash the cheap cleaver, but it’s worth it, because that thing BURIES a Japanese cleaver. I can sharpen it in thirty seconds, to the point where I can hold a paper towel in my left hand, wave the cleaver through it with my right, and watch half of the towel drift to the floor. It crushes garlic. It tenderizes meat. It works as a shovel. It minces effortlessly. It’s so good, it’s weird and inexplicable.

People say I misunderstand. Japanese knives are great if you TAKE CARE of them. Excuse me…I thought they were supposed to work for ME.

It’s really this simple: they don’t work better than cheap knives, they cost much more, they are much harder to maintain, and they are extremely fragile. Where, in all that, is the reason for buying them?

I think I know what’s going on. Insecure people like buying stuff that validates their existence. The Shun people are probably just like the guys who spend $10,000 on CD players and claim it’s worth it. If you have Shakti stones under your clock radio, you will probably love Shun knives. A fool and his money…

I know Alton Brown recommends them. Of course, they PAY him to do that.

Tools are confusing. Sometimes the pricey ones pay off. Sometimes they’re money sinks for the weak-minded. I have been sucked in more than once.

Here’s an illustration of the choices people face. You want sharp knives, right? You can spend billions (small exaggeration) on a machine called a Tormek. Some people who own them will swear they’re essential. Other people will insist you buy expensive Japanese water stones, which you have to keep in containers of water, which, I’m sure, get funky after a few days in the garage. But it turns out there is a sharpening method which is better and cheaper, at least for some applications. It’s called the “Scary Sharp Method.” You buy a piece of flat glass and some sandpaper, and you go to town. Probably costs $20 for supplies that will last five years. Personally, I use a coarse diamond hone and a fine ceramic hone, and the results are spectacular. But you can see how confusing it can be.

A knife’s edge is something that only lasts a short time, anyway, and no one can tell how you sharpened it when they look at the food. You shouldn’t spend an hour trying to get an edge that will be gone after three heavy cooking sessions. Manufacturers know this. Non-Japanese cutlery makers know how to make knives just as hard as the Japanese ones, but they also know that hard knives are brittle and hard to sharpen, so they deliberately limit the hardness. If you think it costs a lot of money to make a hard knife, go to the hardware store and check the prices on files, which are extremely hard.

You can spend a million dollars equipping a kitchen. But you have to ask yourself: what kind of stuff do they use in restaurants? Mundial and Forschner. Aluminum pans. I use Update International cookware and old cast iron from Ebay, and my food is so good it shocks me. Sometimes quality matters, and sometimes it doesn’t. Money ALWAYS matters.

The more in love people are with their tools, the less capable they are of producing results. That’s a rule of thumb arising from my own observations. A lot of people love appearance more than substance. I’ve known dozens of “writers,” but most never wrote much of anything. Most people who own Ferraris don’t know how to drive them. Do you love doing what you do, or do you love thinking of yourself as the type of person who does it? A real cook will do better with tools from KMart than a Food Network fanboi will do with All-Clad and Le Creuset. This is why we have the expression, “The proof of the pudding is in the eating.”

It’s pointless to write this. Some people are incapable of looking past tool quality. If it’s made really well, it must be the right thing to buy!

Get yourself one of those Wok Shop cleavers. You don’t know what you’re missing.

18 Responses to “Shun Overpriced Knives”

  1. aelfheld Says:

    Much of the mania for overpriced cutlery comes from letting interior decorators design kitchens. I don’t much care how pretty the tool is as long as it does what I want it to.

  2. Rick C Says:

    “It’s really this simple: they don’t work better than cheap knives, they cost much more, they are much harder to maintain, and they are extremely fragile. Where, in all that, is the reason for buying them?”

    Same reason people buy Apple products, or $100/ft speaker wire made with unicorn hair, I guess.

  3. Ron Greene Says:

    Hear, hear! Forschners are awesome. Light as a feather, grippy, and dishwasher-happy.

    Rick: Apple products don’t work better and are harder to maintain? You must be joking. Guess which antivirus software is running on the MacBook Pro I’m typing on right now.

  4. Randy Rager Says:

    I have a set of Napa Style (shut. it.) santoku’s I use all the time. The mid-sized knife is scary sharp, perfectly balanced and the epitome of everything the knife should be.

    Chef’s Choice sharpeners are more than adequate, thanks. No, not the expensive Chef’s Choice. The cheapest one I could find, because I’m a cheap bastich. It just works.

  5. Jeff Says:

    Based in your writings I purchased two cleavers from the Wok Shop months ago (#3 and #4 size). They worked as you said they do.
    If you sharpen them a little while with the heel and toe sort of aggressively over done, you’ll get that “rocker” you have in the European chef’s knife.
    And your cleaver will keep getting better and better. Don’t over do it, though. A little goes a long way. You don’t want to wind up with an oversized ulu.

    Thanks again for the info.

    Jeff

  6. Steve H. Says:

    The Wok Shop cleaver I bought has a nice curve on it from the factory, so I haven’t had to mess with it.
    .
    Wait…I just checked the site. I see you mean a different cleaver. They’ve jacked up the price on the one I bought. It’s the “vegetable cleaver.” It’s twenty bucks now. I guess I’m more upscale than you. Stand in awe of me.
    .
    I got one of the cheaper ones, but the blade was a little heavy, and the edge was a little too straight for me, so I gave it to Mike.
    .
    Do Napa Style knives come with a coupon for a free white wine spritzer?

  7. Sigivald Says:

    Tormeks are evidently great. For woodworkers.

    Only a madman would buy one for kitchen knives.

    (Me, I still mostly just use a pair of ceramic rods in a wooden base, forming a V.

    Diamond hones for serious work.)

  8. greg zywicki Says:

    I know you think I’m overly critical, but I do think you might be overstating the difficulty of hand-washing a knife.

  9. Steve H. Says:

    The knife-washing directions came from Shun, not me. You should see Alton Brown hand-washing his knife in their video. It’s worse than I made it sound.

  10. Jeff Says:

    I just checked the site again. You’re right, I hadn’t noticed the other veggie cleaver. But in the photos, they look the same: straight. They are listing the $19.95 cleaver for half off ($9.95) now. I paid about $6.00 for the others. The shipping was more than one cleaver, about $8.00 if memory serves.

    http://www.wokshop.com/store/search.php?list=subcat&subcat=26

    Might be time to stock up…
    Thanks again.

  11. Jeff Says:

    “I will never buy a sissy container to protect my knives, unless I need something to carry them around.”

    I solved that with a knife storage bucket. Not that special, but it works, and it’s CHEAP.

    Posted on a fishing forum: http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com/f26/knife-storage-bucket-98815/

  12. Steve H. Says:

    I found the vegetable cleaver to be somewhat better, and it didn’t need much work. You may have to spend time getting the edge right when you first get it. I am thinking of putting Danish oil on the crappy handle.

  13. Steve H. Says:

    That would make steam come out of the ears of the Shun worshipers

  14. Jeff Says:

    I use linseed oil, but Danish should work. I wipe it on (or dip it in a can) and wipe off the excess. Do that a couple of times then allow to dry for a day or so. Take a piece of really fine sandpaper – don’t use steel wool for this – then LIGHTLY sand the oil into the wood. Do this a second time and you should have a finish that lasts along time. The knives in the bucket are spar varnished, and the wooden handles were oiled and sanded first. But those are my cheap workhorse knives.

  15. Randy Rager Says:

    “Do Napa Style knives come with a coupon for a free white wine spritzer?”
    .
    Beats me, I got the set as a gift. I’ve tried lots of different santoku’s, and those are the best I’ve used to date.

  16. Jim Says:

    Are any of the ceramic knives worth the bother? Or, price?

    Not being snarky here. I really would like to know.

    Jim
    Sunk New Dawn
    Galveston, TX

  17. Virgil Says:

    Twenty five years ago I bought an over priced set of Henkle 4 star knives and ended up letting the ex-wife keep them in the divorce because I had figured out I’d made a mistake.
    .
    She ended up almost cutting her finger off with the things and I managed not to laugh and prayed for strength and knowledge instead.
    .

    Today I buy quality cheap kitchen knives and hone them myself and don’t work on my cars or dig in the yard with them and everything pretty much takes care of itself in the cutting department of my cooking.
    .
    You’ve pointed out some brands I haven’t come across and I look forward to trying some out in the near future.

  18. Steve H. Says:

    I don’t know much about the ceramic knives, but you know what they say about fixing things that ain’t broke. Steel works fine for me.