Baby’s First Bath
May 3rd, 2010I’ll Have the Bollinger
I just cleaned the LR-308.
I am not sure what to make of the experience.
On the one hand, the fit and finish, in and of themselves, made the experience a joy. My Smith & Wesson pistols are about as cute as the LR-308, but my other guns seem pretty clunky in comparison. The LR-308 fits together perfectly and has no flaws I can spot with the naked eye. Cleaning it is like giving a massage to a supermodel. Except that I will never know what it’s like to give a massage to a supermodel.
The design is impressive, too. This is my first AR-type rifle, so I’ve never taken one apart before. I love the way it comes apart without fuss. You never have to reach for a hammer, the way you might have to when stripping an Eastern-bloc rifle. The pins are tight, but the tightest one will come out if you shove it with a hex wrench. The main pins come out without tools of any kind.
Still, while the gun seems finely made, I am a little distressed by the knowledge required to lubricate it and put it back together. Lubricate this lightly. Lubricate that heavily. Make sure this part is turned this way when you put the gun together, because if it’s not, the gun will explode.
I am positive I remember the cam pin thing in the bolt going in at an angle 90° different from the angle at which I left it after reassembly, but I must be wrong. Hope nothing blows up.
With an AK, you can push and beat on things and make it go together in a hurry, while wearing mittens. To put the AR together, you really should have a quiet study, a big table, a nice lamp, a martini, and a good classical piano CD. I have to wonder how many soldiers have been shot while trying to put an M16 together quickly.
The AR seems like the kind of semi-auto James Bond would use. The AK is more for shrieking imbeciles eager to kill random infidels with as little training as possible.
I also cleaned the Vz 58, which took like 25% as long.
I need a trigger for the LR-308. Jim from Smoke on the Water suggests a McCormick trigger, about which I know nothing. He says it comes in double-stage and single-stange, curved or flat.
Great. Four options to think about. I don’t know why anyone would want a straight trigger. Seems like it would not hold onto the finger very well.
The Vz 58’s trigger is unbelievable, and as far as I can tell, it’s single-stage. I love it. I am inclined, on that basis, to go with something similar for the LR-308. But ten minutes after I install it, I know someone will email me and explain that I should have gotten double-stage.
I wonder what the Vz 58 would do, scoped. It’s not supposed to be all that accurate, but with a trigger like that, you can’t help but wonder. Scope mounts for this gun are pretty weird because of the way it ejects.
I’m pretty disappointed in my Boresnake. I ran it through the LR-308 before using patches, and I still got lots of blue when I started cleaning the gun conventionally. Lots of black, too. When I use the Boresnake on pistols, it leaves a mirror-polished surface in three swipes. But maybe that’s an illusion. Maybe I’m just polishing the copper residue.
I have realized I know nothing about cleaning guns. I thought the way to do it (pre-Boresnake) was to start with Hoppe’s and a wire brush, but the product directions I read today suggest a brush is only needed for a filthy, neglected gun. Does this mean a brush is too rough to use every time? I have also been informed that solvent eats brushes with copper in them.
It’s hard for me to believe that running a patch through a barrel one time does anything, but that’s what the literature seems to suggest. Use patch after patch, on a jag, and don’t change directions. I must have put 15 patches through the LR-308. Oddly, the Vz 58, after a hundred rounds of Wolf, was extremely clean except for the gas tube.
I don’t see why jags would work any better than a loopy thing (pardon the technical jargon). The loopy things I have are equipped with thick portions that would seem to do exactly what a jag does.
After I cleaned the Vz 58, I stuck it in the 35″ Bulldog bag I got from Classic Arms. I’m impressed. Very compact and easy to carry. I doubt the curved magazines will fit in the little outside pockets, but I haven’t checked. I can wrap them and put them in with the gun.
I still need a bag for the LR-308. It’s weird that DPMS sells sightless rifles in cases that won’t accommodate a scope, but that’s how it is. I guess I’m expected to buy some kind of mount that detaches when I go home.
The Radway ammunition I bought is attracting criticism RE accuracy. I’m wondering: should I go ahead and start reloading? I have a bunch of cases now, but it looks like this stuff is not reloadable without a lot of misery. Should I expect to be able to create sub-MOA ammunition with my limited skill set and microscopic attention span? I dunno.
Of course, the up side of the ammo criticism is that it implies that I’m not a terrible rifle shot. If the ammunition is quirky, maybe I’m not so bad. I do okay with the .17 HMR.
I’m going to get an elbow pad and something to go between me and the butt of the gun, so I can shoot more without getting sore. I still love the truck stop floor mats, though. What a bargain. And they keep your guns off the scratchy range benches.
I’m glad I got the LR-308. Now all I need is an AR15 in one of the Grendel-y calibers, and I’ll be ready for long days of zombie-shootin’ and Sicilian pizza, out on the front porch.
May 3rd, 2010 at 3:49 PM
I do not carry my AR in a box or a bag, I carry it on a sling. We might have fast zombies rather than slow ones. I do keep it in a cheap-o wally world zippered bag in the trunk. It is the only gun (non CCW) that I will transport loaded b/c of the crazy charging handle.
I do not carry my AR with the expensive sight on it, I have fold-down BUIS. Zombies, again. I do not find that zero moves much if at all with the rail system so when I put the sight on it’s still more accurate than I am.
Why would you worry about a cheap wire brush damaging the inside of a gun barrel? Hardness mismatch of the ages in there.
I was told by a buddy who spent a lot of time in the sandbox that the AR design requires exactly six drops of lube. So that is what I do. It it’s good enough for whacking the bad guys, it’s good enough to shoot at paper. For me at least.
-XC
May 3rd, 2010 at 4:24 PM
Good report on the new acquisition.
Another blogger recently did a good report on good cleaning. Here is the URL if you are interested. http://mausersandmuffins.blogspot.com/2010/04/keep-it-clean.html
May 3rd, 2010 at 5:54 PM
The loop-type patch holder, where you pull the patch through the loop, doesn’t seem to fill the bore as well as a jag, and with a jag the patch will fall off when it comes out the muzzle. Or breech if you have to clean from the front.
Some guns, a straight trigger is rather nice. On my muzzleloader, I wound up taking the trigger out and changing it from curved to straight, the straight just is more comfortable to me on that rifle. And a good two-stage is great; first stage the trigger moves a bit until it hits the stop, then a bit more pressure and bang. The Finn M39 has one of the best I’ve ever used, as good as the K31 and more simple in design.
Something like Hoppe’s or Blue Wonder is fine with a bronze or brass brush, but something like Sweet’s 7.62 or one of the other aggressive copper solvents will attack them, so you have to use a nylon brush. The Barnes CR-10 I have now says to wet a patch, run it back & forth a few times, wait a minute, repeat, then use dry patches to clean it out, then oil when done.
On the Radway brass, make sure if it’s berdan or boxer primed; if berdan, almost impossible to find suitable primers. If boxer, can give it a try.
May 3rd, 2010 at 6:17 PM
If you intend to handload for your rifle, be aware that most Euro military ammunition is Berdan primed and not easily reloaded. Berdan primers are, for practical purposes, unobtainable in the US. Berdan primers must be removed either by prying them out with a specailized tool or pushing them out hydraulically with a specialized tool and a nasty mess.
You would be well advised to stick to Boxer primed cases. US military as well as US commercial brass is Boxer primed. Most commercial ammo intended for the US market is Boxer primed as well. Not all, but most.
Gerry N.
May 3rd, 2010 at 7:34 PM
I suspect in the civilian world the number of different cleaning methods for the same weapon will nearly equal the number of people asked. I had friends who would see me cleaning and ask “did it quit working?” I answer “no, just cleaning” and they tell me what a waste of time. Some of these folks regularly out scored me and never had gun trouble but I just could not stop the regular cleaning after shooting, it just seemed like the right thing to do. The worst of the cleaning jobs was after a match fired in the rain. I would clean the rifle before I got out of my wet clothing and that situation was about the only time a can of spray lube was handy, they seemed to displace the water out of the cracks pretty quick. I knew a pistol shooter who, at the end of the day would remove the grip panels from his 1911 and drop it in a bucket of kerosene and leave it for a day then drag it out and clean the bore and hang it up on a wire until the next weekends match. The main thing is to have fun and be safe.
May 3rd, 2010 at 8:37 PM
This ammunition is Berdan-primed, which is why I said reloading it caused misery.
May 3rd, 2010 at 9:45 PM
Get Mckenzie to help you strip and reassemble your AR…
May 4th, 2010 at 9:28 AM
I have not given a massage to a supermodel either (and don’t suspect that such is my future fate).
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However, I have met a couple of them (I have a couple friends in media and advertising). There is a very good reason that a photo shoot has a crew of a dozen (or more) make up, wardrobe, lighting and photo retouching/editing experts – and it isn’t just some senseless union con game. The women are certainly very slender and have nice figures and facial bone structure (if you’re into that sort of very skinny/angular thing as a look). But they are not so absurdly beautiful as the final picture or commercial makes them look – that is the “Disney magic” of the crew and editors. Your church probably has a couple of women who would, if subjected to the ad crew’s minstrations, be every bit as attractive as any supermodel.
The woman I went to high school with, who ended up a Playboy centerfold a couple years after graduation, did not look anywhere that good in real life either.
May 4th, 2010 at 10:03 AM
What kind of person names a little girl “McKenzie”?
May 4th, 2010 at 11:43 AM
1. Agree with a lot of what blindshooter says.
2. Cleaning a weapon is something you can get very anal about.
3. Shooting in competition, we’d run a patch down the bore of our rifles and grease bolt rollers. Sometimes that would be it for weeks.
4. About the same on handguns. Worried about zero.
5. Have to admit my weapons now are cleaned to assure functionality.
6. A bit of carbon or copper fouling just doesn’t get my blood pressure up.
7. My deer rifle and my shotgun are beat up and ugly, but still adequate.
8. Have been down the other road.
9. In sniper school, my M40A1 wouldn’t hold a zero.
10. Turned out I had gotten solvent in the bedding and the action was floating around in the stock. Enthusiastic cleaning.
11. Rebedding was a long term fix and I had to be issued another rifle, much to the disgust of the staff.
12. Was told to punch the bore, clean the bolt and otherwise leave the damn thing alone.
13. You might be surprised how casual some people who tote weapons professionally can be about this stuff.
V/R JWest
May 4th, 2010 at 5:08 PM
J. West brings up one of my fears, getting solvent between the action and bedding glue. If you don’t get it out it will soften up the stuff and here comes the zero troubles. That’s mainly why I hated getting the bedded guns wet, you had to disassemble to dry and then the dreaded zero question again. This is not a big deal if all you do is plink at the range but in a service rifle match with no sighters it can cost you that one point you need for a medal. The pillar bedded bolt guns are not as bad as the service rifle but I still hated to remove the stock in between matches to dry out.
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I may b***h about cleaning a wet rifle but I never let rain stop me from shooting. I always thought my odds went up in the rain because a lot of good shooters would quit instead of getting their equipment wet.
May 4th, 2010 at 11:44 PM
Steve,
The straight trigger gives an improved sensory-feedback through the trigger finger, as to exactly how much pressure you’re applying to the trigger.
Great for match shooting or varmintcide. Likely would suck for combat or other stress-shooting environments.
As for cleaning, I’m a bit old school. I like Break Free, let it soak 20 min, then hit it with bronze brush and a sucession of patches. First several patches are soaked in Break Free, just to help clean out the brushed sludge.
If it’s still a nasty barrel, then I’ll break out the Sweets and nylon brush, but that’s a last resort, not normal, daily care.
My 5.56 AR upper will be built this week. Got a Lothar Walther barrel (stainless). 18″, .223 Wylde chamber with a 1/8 twist.
I’ve several more purchases to make before it’s bench-ready, but I’m trying to build a working rifle with damn few “gun store commando” aspects.
Knights makes a fully adjustable “flip up” rear sight, thats quite drool worthy. With the matching Knights front, it looks like a slick setup.
It’ll also (eventually) get high end glass and an EOTEC, both on detatchable A.R.M.S. mounts.
I’ll be going with a McCormack trigger. Curved, two-stage, to match my other milsurp rifles.
Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX
May 5th, 2010 at 1:35 PM
1. Blindshooter: were you one of those civilians that would show up with rechambered M-1’s and ’03’s, taking medals away from us poor Marines who were shooting for a living?
2. Hated getting beat by guys in their fifties and sixties shooting ’03’s.
3. If there was a match, military or NRA regional, we shot. Weather wasn’t a factor.
4. We were all scrambling to pile up points for distinguished.
5. Best part of the deal was the military footing the bill for a great time.
6. So spoiled me, haven’t tried anything like it since.
V/R JWest
May 5th, 2010 at 8:58 PM
A few things to be aware of:
It’s best to not use a screw together cleaning rod. Invest in a decent rod such as a Dewey.
The bore on an AR style rifle is easily cleaned from the breech so use of a bore guide is recommended. That way the tender edges at the rifling is protected. A ding at the muzzle will affect accuracy so refrain from ramming a rod down that end.
As far as cleaning the bore, Derrick Martin is about as familiar with ARs as it’s possible to be and he emphasizes that cleaning is alright, but one doesn’t need to really worry much. To paraphrase him, not scrubbing the barrel isn’t going to make your .308 bore eventually become a .280. Clean it as much for your own peace of mind as for anything else.
There are several really decent books about AR-15s. Since yours is so close to an AR-15, generally everything applies. Three of the better ones are THE COMPETITIVE AR15 by Glen Zediker, Black Magic by John Feamster and The Complete Guide to AR-15 Accuracy by Derrick Martin. All of them are great reads and very informative.
Speaking of informative advice, Jim at Smoke on the Water gives nothing but good advice. If he recommends something, I would take it to the bank. So, I’d bet that McCormick trigger is probably a beaut.
Good luck,
Woody
May 6th, 2010 at 10:52 PM
When shooting with a scope on an AR style rifle, one’s cheek position has to float a bit to be high enough to see through the scope. That float can affect accuracy, both because of being generally unsteady and the parallax (sic) of the scope. A really inexpensive fix is a six inch section of foam pipe insulation. It slips right down on to the top of the stock and gives a much better feel to one’s head position. Since it’s not attached to anything, except by a tiny bit of friction, one can use the charging handle without any problem.
Something to be aware of is that your natural head position forward or towards the rear changes significantly depending upon your shooting position. When you shoot prone, your head is way forward in comparison to how it is located when from the standing position. Shooting from the bench is about half way in between the other two positions. Decide which way is likely to be the most common way for you, position the scope so that your eye distance relative to the scope is how you like it in that position. Then, when shooting from a different position, accept that there is a tiny bit of strain that you might feel when compensating for the position.
The main things are to be comfortable, be safe and to have fun
Woody.
May 7th, 2010 at 4:59 PM
One of the best shooting days I ever had with a rifle was on a cloudy, misty/light rain day that chased everybody else off the range; last guy who left said “This has now stopped being fun.” First real try with an old Mauser I’d been working on, and it was putting Federal ammo into sub-1/2″ groups at 100 yards.
And yeah, had to take it out of the stock to make sure got everything dry. Happily, the bedding compound had been used to line the whole barrel channel and receiver area, it kept the wood under it dry and it and the steel just wiped dry.