Isn’t More Better?
March 13th, 2009Express Yourself
Today I got an email which sort of suggested it was silly to want a shotgun that holds more than five rounds.
I realize that the pump-gun people are almost a cult, like the .45 ACP people and the revolver people. I don’t think it’s possible to convince a real pump fan that there is anything better than a pump. It would be like trying to make me like soy. But I’ll ask anyway. Do you think there is a good reason–I mean a good reason, not some ridiculous BS like “three more ounces of weight will make it impossible to carry the weapon”–why you would not want to have lots of shotgun shells at your disposal in a gunfight?
Back in the days when the cops were slowly realizing revolvers were obsolete for law enforcement (because they were being killed by criminals with Glocks), the notion that more ammunition was better did not seem controversial. Even the TV news heads got it. They would say, “The standard service revolver holds six bullets. The WICKED SEMI-AUTOMATIC INVISIBLE-TO-X-RAYS GLOCK holds sixteen. The police are now outgunned.” And they were right. Is there some reason why that logic does not apply to long guns?
Liberals seem to believe it, although I know that’s a sorry authority to cite. They wet their drawers constantly over “high capacity” magazines, because they realize an armed man who can shoot fifteen times without reloading is a bigger threat than a man who has to fumble with a ridiculous speedloader after five or six shots.
I read an FBI document the other day. I’ll bet many of you have seen it. The authors pointed out a sad fact. I’m assuming the document is legitimate and the “fact” is really a fact. They said that most shots fired by LEOs miss.
Again, I am probably using a bad example. If you’ve seen the police shoot, you, like me, may have been tempted to turn to a life of crime simply because of the astronomically low odds that a cop with a gun can hit you. They are really bad most of the time. It must be ego; anyone who is willing to listen can learn to shoot. If you show up at the range in ludicrous black pants with 92 pockets, plus a SWAT T-shirt, plus insulated black boots, in the summer heat, you probably are not the kind of person who thinks other people can teach him anything. Also, I suppose many cops are primarily quiet, mature civil servants just hoping to get benefits and pensions, so they’re not all that gung-ho about marksmanship. They miss most of the time, but maybe that has more to do with their skills than the stress of the gunfight.
Anyway, most law enforcement bullets miss completely. To me, that suggests that more ammunition can only be helpful. The more you shoot, the more likely you are to hit something, and you can at least lay down suppressing fire a little longer.
I have seen at least one good argument for fewer rounds. I wanted to get 12-round magazines for my shotgun, but the Saiga nuts say the 8-round jobs are more reliable. So much so that you can actually buy a part so you can saw up a perfectly good 12-round magazine and convert it. Still, I think the people who do this plan to make up for it by carrying more magazines. That would be my guess.
You can’t hope that a shotgun’s spread will make up for a lack of ammunition. At self-defense range, a load of buckshot isn’t significantly wider than a bullet. It might be an inch and a half across, instead of .45 inches. That means you still have to aim. The advantage in short-range accuracy comes from a shotgun’s sight radius and the fact that you shoulder it, not from the width of the pattern. You shouldn’t think you can get away with a few shells just because you’re shooting a “scattergun.” You should think of it the same way you think of a rifle. I have a rifle that holds six rounds, and I wouldn’t even think of using it for home defense.
These things seem self-evident, but I am well aware that there is a difference between armchair experts like myself and people who actually fight criminals. So if there is some reason why I should stick with the tiny 5-round magazines that came with the Saiga, tell me what it is.
March 13th, 2009 at 9:38 AM
No fuss from me, after picking the round and then type, the only question about capacity is reliability and weight. The more the better.
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I don’t have the time or money to do enough drills to make reloading under stress a sure thing, much better to have more than enough in the weapon to finish anything that might come up.
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I still think everyone should get all the trigger time they can with whatever personal defense weapon you decide on. A good idea is to have two, one that you shoot often enough to know its reliable and another that you run most of the practice drills with. Saves wear and tear on the primary and if you have trouble with the clone you can watch for that problem with the primary and maybe preempt it.
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Its not possible to own too many 1911’s…………
March 13th, 2009 at 9:45 AM
My Mossberg 590 pump holds 8 shots. I’m not a pump fanboy but I bought it precisely because more=better.
March 13th, 2009 at 9:53 AM
Well, I’m not a bigot, but I do know that my Mossberg/500 has about three moving parts that take the shell from the magazine to the chamber. Ok, ten.
And my Beretta Urika (lovely gun) gas gun has about a zillion springs and bits and pivots. And it works perfectly, but if it were to have a problem (say during a firefight) then *clearing* it requires me to dissasemble it. You can’t even release the bolt into the chamber without pushing a button that has two springs and four pieces of metal on it.
My Mossy has a big grip/pump thing that I can apply leverage to to shove shells around. If the magazine is gonked I can drop in a shell and push the pump down – two metal bars around a solid metal pin.
It’s partially why I’d grab my FN (10 moving parts in the firing mechanism) over my (to be delivered) AR (bout a zillion).
Not that I don’t want a Saiga.
-XC
March 13th, 2009 at 10:03 AM
Stick with the stock 5 rounders so you can spend the money on a 20 round drum magazine.
March 13th, 2009 at 10:13 AM
I am not a LEO, but have been tactically trained and have carried shotguns, rifles, handguns, etc, in duty and combat situations – though I am not an expert and am getting a bit past it. I think that balance and handiness are pretty important for the weapon – if the 8-round is too cumbersome, go with the 5-round mag. I have handled auto-shotguns with the drum-type magazines and found them unwieldy.
You should pattern the shotgun at combat ranges – I think your estimate, perhaps tongue in cheek, of an inch and a half pattern is a bit small.
You may be right about LEO marksmanship – in my experience, the guys who practiced and liked guns were good shots. A lot of cops don’t particularly like carrying or using firearms – they tend not to shoot well. Not surprising.
I still know a few undercover types who carry revolvers; loaders can be worked pretty fast with practice.
March 13th, 2009 at 10:17 AM
In every area – all other things being equal – greater capacity is better.
If it doesn’t mess up weight, balance, or performance in some other way, more is better in a product.
March 13th, 2009 at 12:38 PM
I have 3 shotguns set up for home defense. 2 hold 8 rounds and 1 holds 7. All three are pump action.
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The reason you will find mostly pump guns in police cruisers and our armed forces is their inherent reliability. A Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 is like a fork. You pick it up, it works.
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Not to disparage the Saiga, but the above two guns have been put through the wringer for decades. That is why many people choose them for self defense.
March 13th, 2009 at 2:25 PM
I think I should remind everyone that the gun they are suggesting is untried and possibly less reliable than a pump is a KALASHNIKOV.
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I have heard one or two stories about Kalashnikov reliability. Maybe you have, too.
March 13th, 2009 at 3:39 PM
Steve,
Have you heard about the new fully automatic recoilless 12 gauge shotgun? It’s the Atchisson AA-12. Lots of videos on YouTube. It’s an absolutely awesome weapon.
March 13th, 2009 at 3:53 PM
“almost a cult, like the .45 ACP people”
Almost? The 1911 .45 ACP people are worse than Mac users.
March 13th, 2009 at 4:54 PM
I divide them into 1911 nuts and .45 ACP nuts, because some .45 ACP nuts don’t shoot 1911s.
March 13th, 2009 at 8:46 PM
The most important thing is knowing that that particular gun that you own works every time. That’s why you should never get rid of a gun when you get the kinks worked out.
March 13th, 2009 at 9:45 PM
I can put, if I remember correctly, which I may not, almost twenty Aguila shorty shotshells into the 870 with the extended magazine. And not much is more reliable than an 870. Cops use them a lot, but I suspect more for breaching etc. than defense. For home defense I’d want something short, so a pistol grip would be a must. One thing about the pump, is you can reload the magazine on the fly, even while it is being fired. You can top off a magazine while walking.
Most of these things lend themselves more to hunting birds than perps. But I wouldn’t pick up a shotgun first for a home intruder anyway.
March 13th, 2009 at 11:46 PM
Steve, more is better. In fact, load the spare magazine and keep it close, that’s what you want to grab if someone comes in at night.
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If the weapon feels awkward or heavy, that just means you need to handle it more. Practice and practice but also carry it around the house to become accustomed to how it feels.
Do that a lot.
March 15th, 2009 at 5:00 PM
My Department went back to the five round tube magazine when we discovered that many brands of shotgun ammo would bust the crimp in the mag when firing.
Now I’ve been retired for quite a while so maybe the ammo companies have fixed this. But it isn’t fun having loose buckshot rolling around in the magazine. My house defense shotgun? A hammer double. It sits loaded with the hammers down. No springs under tension, two rounds of buckshot ready.
What the “can’t have too much ammo” crowd is missing is that if I shoot at someone it’s because they are dangerous. I don’t wear Kevlar underwear anymore so if I miss the bad guy will shoot me and I won’t need any more ammo. If you miss five times with your shotgun and then kill someone with the sixth shot you will probably end up in prison, simply because it takes time to miss. If the bad guy is willing to give you that much time, he probably didn’t need shooting.