Stylin’ With the .38 Super
March 4th, 2009Cor-Bon!
I have decided to get some decent ammunition for the .38 Super. My logical basis for this move is that while the .38 Super has a lower capacity than a Glock, it has two characteristics a Glock lacks. 1. It is pimptastic. 2. It is pimptacular. If you’re going to liquefy a burglar’s internal organs, you may well want to do it with style. This is where the .38 Super excels. After all, this is the pistol Texas Ranger Frank Hamer used to send Bonnie and Clyde to their eternal reward. Such as it was.
It’s a confusing proposition. There are a lot of interesting loads out there, but the .38 Super has an issue which makes some types of ammunition scary. Depending on which .38 Super you buy, the casing may not get perfect support, and it’s possible for a high-pressure round to blow up and fire hot gas and shrapnel into your face. Imagine how a burglar would smirk.
The folks at Cor-Bon have told me they do not think their ammunition will injure me. However, they won’t be the ones looking at the rear of the slide as I shoot it. So I am nervous about buying without research.
It looks like the Cor-Bon 125-grain DPX is a great choice. It is highly lethal, but the velocity isn’t all that kooky. My clever guess is that this means the case pressure isn’t too bad. They make other highly regarded designs, but they probably aren’t any more deadly. I figure I’ll buy enough to fill several magazines, with a few left over for testing at the range. It has to cycle.
I could come up with my own solution, creating my own load. But I think I would trust Cor-Bon’s hottest round more than something I cobbled together in the garage. I have no fears about shooting tame target reloads, but that’s about all I’m willing to do in this caliber, knowing as little as I do about reloading.
I never got around to getting nice grips. The truth is, I couldn’t find any I really liked. Maybe I should look again. I think green abalone would be perfect, but not everyone is willing to risk the posthumous disdain of George S. Patton, so there aren’t a lot of choices in abalone and mother-of-pearl.
I researched putting a supported barrel in this gun, but I got discouraged for some reason or other. I need to get back on top of it. The Colt people seem to have confidence in their design, but if I can make it safer, why not?
Apparently .45 ammunition is much easier to choose. I think the round everyone recommends is the 230-grain Federal Hydra-Shock.
I am trying to get rid of my .40 caliber Glock. It’s a very fine defensive weapon, but I now realize I was hoodwinked when I bought into the .40 fantasy. As I understand it, the .40 S&W was a product of affirmative action. The FBI found that female agents pouted and stamped their little feet when they had to shoot the .45, and the 10mm was equally unladylike, so the result was the .40, which is a 10mm without all that upsetting chauvinist stopping power.
Perhaps I am not totally right on the facts, but as usual, I am too lazy to check.
I was told that the .40 was easy to shoot, which isn’t really true. I was told that the .45 was hard to shoot, which is a pure steaming load. I made a mistake. Or maybe I didn’t. Maybe Glock didn’t make a .45 back then.
The .40 kills people just fine, but the .45 is somewhat better. And if I had a Glock in .45, I could quit buying .40-caliber ammunition, and I could shoot the same reloads that I shoot from my 1911. The Laser-Cast people claim their cast .45 bullets are just fine for Glock barrels. Hopefully they know what they’re talking about.
Another .40 down side: the Glock Kaboom. Once in a while, a Glock blows up, because the case in the .40 isn’t supported well. Or something. I believe you can fix this with a new barrel, but again, why struggle to save a gun you could just as easily trade? Glock claims the guns blow up because of hot reloads, I think. But I’m fairly sure they also claim Glocks are pretty, so…
I’d lose two rounds of capacity if I got a .45, but being shot 14 times with a .45 is arguably about as bad as being shot 16 times with a .40. I think the benefits outweigh the loss. After all, as all real he-men know, a .45 round will kill a criminal every time, even if you just throw it at him. Or mention it. And it will take a car door off. And it will pick a mugger up and throw him six feet backward. And…let’s see, what are the other lies they tell?
It’s not as effective as a pump-action shotgun, which will make a criminal’s head explode if he hears you rack it. This is one of my all-time favorite fairy tales. Yes, criminals listen to see what kind of gun you have, and unless it’s a 12-gauge pump-action shotgun, they barge right ahead. And as we all know, a semi-auto is TOTALLY SILENT when you rack it, and even if it weren’t, it wouldn’t scare anybody. An AK makes a racket when you chamber a round. So does a .45. I would be afraid to bet fifty cents that I could tell the difference between the sound of an AK and the sound of a pump gun in a dark room. Who seriously believes a criminal with an IQ of 85 knows the difference? Think about it. I mean, most people are so clueless they think a shotgun is the same thing as a rifle.
I always get comments on this. Even though there is no evidence whatosever that the sound of a particular gun’s mechanical bits has ever had a unique affect on any criminal. It’s great arguing about a point so unworthy of discussion no one has ever collected data on it. Gun sounds don’t kill people. Lead kills people. So does running out of shotgun shells during a gunfight. People always say pump guns are great because the cops use them. Of course, cops were using six guns long after everyone else went to high-capacity semi-autos. Cops ride Harleys, for crying out loud. Would you rather cross a desert on a Harley or a Honda? I know what I’d pick.
I should post a clip of a gun racking and ask the pump-gun freaks to identify the weapon.
If pump-action shotguns were that great, you wouldn’t have to load them. You could just buy an MP3 of the sound and play it at the criminal on your Ipod speakers. It would be like saying “it” to the Knights of Ni! Get the mop ready.
CUSTOMER: I need a shotgun.
SHOP OWNER: Here’s a Saiga-12 semi-auto shotgun. It has a 20-round magazine you can change in three seconds, AK-47 reliability, and low recoil, and it fires about as fast as you can pull the trigger.
CUSTOMER: Forget that. I want a five-shot pump that takes a long time to rack, reloads in a minute and a half, and SOUNDS funky!
SHOP OWNER: You seem like the kind of guy who could appreciate this limited edition Mossberg tactical thong, signed by David Caruso.
Anyway, the .45 is pretty much impossible to question with any credibility. It may not be the best, or even as good as the Holy Hand Grenade, but it’s real good.
March 4th, 2009 at 12:56 PM
Heheheh. That’s a lot of fodder for gun zealots in one post.
.
Multiple guns in the same caliber make baby Vulcan smile. Most of my semi-autos (that I would consider for self-defense) are in either 9mm or.45 ACP. If you are a reloader (I’m not), it makes even more sense. Plus, I’ve seen stories on the Intarweb of the .40 Short & Weak just bouncing off bare-chested bad guys.
.
One of the main reasons many people choose a shotgun over a semi-rifle for home defense is the lack of over-penetration. If you live alone in a rural area, this is less of a consideration.
.
However, keep in mind, with a shotgun, if the pumping action doesn’t scare away the goblin, you don’t even need to aim. Just fire it up in the air and the pellets will find their way to the bad guy.
March 4th, 2009 at 12:58 PM
I’ve heard you can deflect a .40 S&W by making a vest from American cheese!
March 4th, 2009 at 1:13 PM
Sorry Steve, that is Cheddar cheese, aged 5 years. Don’t argue with me, I know of what I speak being from Wisco and all.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:25 PM
You probably fell for the orange kind. I bought black tactical cheese.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:26 PM
Man, I was going to get a .40 S&W, but I’d feel like a wuss now…
March 4th, 2009 at 1:27 PM
It would be an EPIC FAIL, at best.
March 4th, 2009 at 1:44 PM
Chuck Hawks says the 155-grain JHP .40 S&W is really good.
March 4th, 2009 at 3:30 PM
I don’ wanna get shot with a .40. OTOH, If I’m shooting, it’s prolly a .45. Hey, why not make some grips?
March 4th, 2009 at 4:58 PM
“I never got around to getting nice grips. … I think green abalone would be perfect,”
.
My 24-year-old daughter fell in love with the Pink Pearl Grips on the Taurus Model 22 (it’s her first gun).
.
http://tinyurl.com/aeqs6e
.
After the 2nd range practice, one of the grips cracked. The Taurus Rep said that happens all the time with the “Pearl Grips” (I am not sure that that is true; it’s only what the Rep said). Taurus is replacing it at no cost and considers grip cracks to be a manufacturing defect.
.
Just so, you might want to ask your grip supplier if they’ll replace it if it cracks…
March 4th, 2009 at 5:00 PM
“Hey, why not make some grips?”
.
Is it time to restart the mill discussion?
(Thwack! JeffW ducks thrown Bridgeport Manual)
.
Okay…maybe not.
March 4th, 2009 at 5:02 PM
Okay, see, I need a lathe to make a belt grinder. And I need a belt grinder to make grips. The milling machine…that’s just to tie the room together.
March 4th, 2009 at 7:00 PM
You can buy guns?
I thought all that was left on the shelves were tumbleweeds.
March 4th, 2009 at 9:30 PM
Is it possible that the Obama campaign was funded by gun dealers?
March 4th, 2009 at 9:57 PM
When the Army switched from .45s to the M9 Berreta 9mm the barracks wisdom had it that all one had to do to stop someone from firing the 9mm was to reach out and firmly grasp the barrel and slide and hold the slide stop down.
.
File that along with the pump sound etc.
.
Just so you know.
March 5th, 2009 at 7:22 AM
Customer: I want a pump shotgun with interchangeable choke tubes as opposed to a heavy, clumsy rifle-style “Tactical” weapon. I’d like to be able to use it for bird hunting, trap and skeet, and sporting clays, as opposed to blasting paper targets at the range and looking cool.
Shop Owner: Well, I have a number of different weapons that might suit you. lest stepover to the rack and we’ll find one that fits you.
My $0.02
March 5th, 2009 at 7:24 AM
Should be “Let’s step over”, BTW.
Shouldn’t post before ingesting at least one cup of coffee.
March 5th, 2009 at 7:57 AM
Damn, I bought a Springfield XD not 2 months ago in preparation for the upcoming collapse of civilization. Now I find it’s a gun for girls. At least the price was right and the ammo is available all over the place because the police use it.
However, I now wish I’d gotten the new 1911 manufactured in the Philippines for the $100 more.
The wife still doesn’t like the 40 S&W, so something in a small caliber is going to be coming up. Are there any recommendations out there?
March 5th, 2009 at 10:22 AM
CUSTOMER: I have no idea what a Saiga 12 weighs or how it handles, and I can’t be bothered reading the reviews, so I’ll take a slow-cycling pump gun with a tiny capacity based on the assumption that plastic is heavier than hardwood. And even though I have a nice hunting shotgun, I insist that my new one do everything.
.
SHOP OWNER: Hey, can I interest you in a Kentucky Rifle? It was good enough for Daniel Boone!
.
CUSTOMER: You kids, wanting to look cool with your crazy hep-cat contraptions! I’ll stick with my blunderbuss!
March 5th, 2009 at 11:58 AM
Steve,
What I have never been able to figure out is why the shell isn’t chambered before the intruder arrives.
I can see Marshal Matt Dillon stopping his opponent during the draw as he loads his six shooter.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:01 PM
Well, the one that I have handled didn’t feel at all good to me. It balanced much more like a rifle than a shotgun. To be honest, I never fired it but I expect it pointed much like a (rather short-stocked) rifle.
Besides, a 20 round fully loaded magazine is heavy in and of itself. YMMV.
I have nothing against plastic and have shot very well (for me)with a Mossberg pump.
I haven’t a clue in the world why I’d want a 20 shot shotgun anyhow. I’m not clearing trenches or fighting off swarming Chicoms at the Chosin Reservior.
Besides, if you don’t shoot it dry, you can feed the magazine of a pump without taking it out of service. Hell, if you’re in that sort of firefight, the bad guys are probably advancing leapfrog fashion, giving each other covering fire. You’ll have plenty of time to relaod while you’re behind cover.
Hey- if you want it, buy it. Thats why they make more than one sort of gun.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:04 PM
I like the 12-round magazines. The drums look awkward, but the 12-round jobs are smaller and seem to hold a nice prudent amount of ammunition.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:05 PM
I believe in different guns for different jobs. You don’t use the same gun on a rabbit as you use on a prairie dog, as you use on deer, as you use on big game, as you use on birds, et cetera. Well, you can use the same gun on a rabbit as you would use on a deer, but only if you like a lot of red mist. Self defense weapons and military weapons are also going to be a little different.
There is no such thing as too many weapons, as long as you have room for them. This is not something for the government to decide for me. They don’t know my needs.
That said, I don’t know much about what a Saiga 12 handles like, but I can’t imagine a better idea for a home defense shotgun.than a reliable as a hammer semi auto 12 gauge with lots of shells to back it up. I’d really like one, but it’s not in the budget right now. If it handles wrong, I could see it not working for bird hunting. I’ve heard of people buying an attachment for it that allows it to comply with trap and skeet range rules, so it’s probably not too terrible.
March 5th, 2009 at 1:12 PM
I could never hunt birds unless I needed the food. They remind me of Maynard and Marvin. That’s not completely true; ducks and geese aren’t much like parrots. Anyway, I don’t plan to hunt. I have no land in Florida, I have no one to hunt with, I don’t want a bird dog stinking up my yard, etcetera.
.
If I knew someone who would help me get some pigs or turkeys, I’d change my mind.
.
I keep meaning to try clay pigeons. I think it has to be good training for defensive shooting. I have some suitable ammunition for the Sweet Sixteen. I’d use the Saiga if the range people would let me. I don’t care what a bunch of gun nerds think of me.
March 5th, 2009 at 2:51 PM
The Sweet Sixteen is my idea of a near perfect bird gun. Possibly the closest I ever came to grand larceny was stealing my buddy’s when were were shooting clays.
You might be able to use the Saiga, but for me the stock was way too short and the piece didn’t point worth a crap when I put it to my shoulder. It did AIM reasonably well, but you don’t aim a shotgun.
I like bird hunting, even without a dog. Grouse are scarcer than hen’s teeth these days in WV, and quail have vanished totally, but the doves abound. You don’t need a dog to hunt doves, and I’ve never shot at a more challenging target.
Turkeys and pigs shouldn’t be too hard to find in Florida, of all places.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:42 PM
My brother owns a Saiga 12. I shot a bunch of rounds through it and then bought myself a Mossberg 590 when I wanted a shotgun. He’s shot both and now wishes he’d bought the Mossberg too.
The Saiga isn’t a bad gun, but it’s not incredible. The stock sight radius sucks. Reloading is tricky because it doesn’t have a last shot hold open but the bolt needs to be back to get many mags to seat properly. Hicap mags used to be impossible to come by or incredibly expensive. They may yet be again. Not a bad gun, but not without faults.
“What I have never been able to figure out is why the shell isn’t chambered before the intruder arrives.”
Many of the old pumps are not especially drop safe. A good blow on the butt or muzzle and they’ll go off. Therefore they’re stored with a full mag tube, but an empty chamber. This is a conditional called “cruiser ready” because it is how cops often keep them in their patrol cars. Lever actions are often stored similarly for the same reasons. Plus you get to rack the action as a warning before you shoot the guy.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:23 PM
Interestingly, the .40 S&W seems to do very well with police shootings and the opinion of the cops I know is that .45 ACP does so well because of the age and experience of the people shooting them. Of course, nothing really beats a .41 Magnum or it’s child, the 10mm Auto, but both are pretty rare cartridges. 16 rounds of hot .40 S&W in a 1911 would do fine for almost anyone, really, and it does have somewhat better barrier penetration.
March 5th, 2009 at 4:29 PM
You are the first person I’ve seen, touting the .40 over the .45. I guess there is no way to make people agree on stopping power. Regardless of which is really better, I have no doubts about the .45, and it will make my life easier by taking an entire caliber out of my reloading list.
.
Chuck Hawks says the .40 is better than the 10mm. I’m oversimplifying, but you can find it on his site. I know that will irritate the 10mm guys.
March 5th, 2009 at 8:59 PM
Love my son’s Mossberg 590! Great fun. I’ll get one with my slush fund when I can convince my wife someone gave it to me.
Interesting article in the American Rifleman this month (you all are NRA members, right?) about pump guns vs. semi-autos.
Pumps are more reliable.
And even if the racking sound doesn’t deter the perp, it encourages me.
March 5th, 2009 at 9:38 PM
One of the easiest, cheapest ways to train for defensive shooting is to get an airrifle. Practice shooting without aiming. Most self defense stuff will take place in a distance less then thirty feet so the air rifle can give good practice just pointing and shooting.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:16 AM
I like .45 ACP, I carry a 1911 in .45 ACP, and so on and so forth. It’s habit, and I hit what I am shooting at. That being said, I understand a decent amount about stopping power and I know people who know a lot more than me, and I have watched this debate unfold since the 1960s. You must — must — have the penetration when hunting human beings on a casual basis and sectional density is the only way to do this without depending on very-non-pistol-like velocities. You must have a heavy enough bullet that will penetrate if people are trying to hide. The heavier .357s and .40s will do this, 9×19 really won’t, 9×23 is actually pretty good but rare. If you can catch someone outside of hard cover, 120 grains from a .357 or a 230 grain .45 ACP will tear them up, but you can’t depend on that. If you think that you will be dealing with someone using concealment as cover, you want to be able to go through that concealment and have it not work as cover. For this, you need sectional density. If you want a common, less expensive caliber that works well for this and has outstanding results in real world shootings and allows high capacity magazines in automatic pistols, you are left with .40 S&W and that’s it.
I didn’t like .40 S&W when it came out for a number of reasons, mainly because I thought that the 10mm was not unreasonable in the original Norma loads (200 grains at 1200 fps) because it was similar to a .357 with hot loads or a .41 Mag in a heavier gun which was what most people I knew had and which at the time was really the only smart option other than a 1911 in .45 ACP (or .38 Super, less commonly, and 9×23 was just an idea that Winchester hadn’t stolen yet). .40 S&W seemed like a step backwards by the FBI. Well, I was wrong. .40 S&W is a solid caliber that seems to kill people pretty well. You will not go wrong with hotter .40 S&W ammo in the heavier loadings and good bullets.
Does a .45 make larger holes than .40 S&W? Yes, especially with the hotter 200 grain loads. Will it penetrate as well? No, and that’s an issue (one that the .41 Magnum was supposed to address, actually). Does it allow you to carry on a gunfight at 75 yards easily? No, and that can be an issue in some open country (again, the .41 Magnum and the specific design goals of the 10mm Auto). Does the .40 S&W do better here? Not really, but you have more chances, and 200 grains in a .40 diameter package at 1100 fps will hit harder and penetrate deeper at 75 yards than 200 grains in a .45 diameter package at 950 fps.
And there are a lot of dead bad guys.
I still carry a 1911 in .45 ACP, but you shouldn’t discount .40 S&W.
March 6th, 2009 at 10:01 AM
I don’t know if it’s realistic to worry about shooting people through walls and car doors and so on. Frank Hamer was smart to consider that, since he planned to ambush two people who were trapped in a car, but I can’t really see myself trying it. And there is a risk that when you optimize your ammunition for that kind of situation, you will screw it up for conditions you’re more likely to encounter.
.
One thing that concerned me when I got my .40 was overpenetration. If you use heavy, high-caliber slugs, you risk having bullets pass out of attackers before they expand and do real damage. You can end up lightly wounding someone with a .44 Magnum, in a situation where a good 9mm round would have expanded nicely and dropped him. This is why I stay away from big, heavy bullets that go fast. I chose the .40 because this did not seem like an issue.
.
I stay away from rounds that will overpenetrate, and .40/200 grains sounds exactly like what I want to avoid. I chose fast, light .40 ammunition that gets really big inside criminals.
.
I have a .50 AE, but even if it were reliable (it’s not), I wouldn’t have any faith in it as a defensive weapon, because the bullets are gigantic, and they go very, very fast. On the other hand, when it comes to pistol-whipping, it has few rivals.
March 6th, 2009 at 10:10 AM
Thirty years ago, people generally didn’t think about auto glass, mailboxes, winter clothing, and so on. It was also a lot more unusual to have extended gunfights between criminals and the police. Outside of some urban areas (New York City, for instance) where things had been lively since the end of WWII, that changed in the 1970s and with the emergence of crack as a major problem. If you have to shoot at someone for a while, they will probably try to hide at some point through the process. That’s why barrier penetration matters.
You are absolutely correct that overpenetration is a problem, but you have to be able to reach the idiot to be able to hurt him. Ballancing the recoil with the ability to control the weapon tends to rule out things like the .44 Magnum, but it makes a very good case for the heavier .40 S&W loads.
My point, and I think that I have one somewhere around here, is that .40 S&W is a fine caliber for most people in most situations. It wasn’t so hot initially, but development and experience have shown it to be just fine. People don’t complain about the Garrett Grenades that much anymore either.
March 6th, 2009 at 10:16 AM
I think the .40 is great, but until I can get true .357 ballistics and versatility in a Glock, with a big ammunition selection and no reloading issues, I like the .45 better than anything.
March 6th, 2009 at 12:04 PM
Perhaps it’s just me, but seems to me the best way to carry out a gunfight over 75 yards is to either withdraw from the fray, or use a rifle.
I suppose you could find yourself forted up in a situation where you can’t withdraw without leaving behind something you don’t wish to lose, but it seems likely to me that you wouldn’t be stuck with just a handgun. Of course one solution might be a .357 or .44 revolver and carbine combo. Or napalm. 😉
March 6th, 2009 at 12:48 PM
I guess I could hit a person with a pistol round at 75 yards, but the odds that a random doofus with a stolen Charter Arms .38 could do the same to me are about one in ten million, so I suppose at that distance, I’d just run away.
March 6th, 2009 at 3:00 PM
When I was shooting regularly and firing lots of rounds, I could hit a bleach jug at about 75 yards 4-5 out of 6 with a Ruger Super Blackhawk.
Of course, I was 20 years old with a steady hand and no bifocals. Today I’d have to squint to see the bleach jug.
if someone was firing at me at a range of 75 yards, I’d trade space for safety and run like hell.
March 6th, 2009 at 10:17 PM
The only way that I am aware of to get .357 Mag performance in a Glock is 9×25.
March 6th, 2009 at 10:39 PM
I’ll get right on that, as soon as I trade my .45 for .440 Cor-Bon and my .357 for .40 Super. Because what I want are incredibly obscure calibers that make my life miserable.
.
I’ve made life hard enough already with .38 Super and .50 AE.
March 6th, 2009 at 11:28 PM
I am not arguing against .45 ACP — it’s what I use.
While I like .38 Super, have you looked at 9×23? You will be reloading anyhow and it’s a stronger case.
March 7th, 2009 at 9:52 AM
I don’t want to fool with 9×23.
April 29th, 2009 at 3:01 AM
.38 super can be pushed pretty hard in un supported chambers. around 1300 fps+ is when you need to start checking for pressure signs. All depends on the powder and load.
A 90 grain bullet can be pushed as high as 14-1450 fps, enough to go through a class 3 vest!