In This Corner, in the Black Fishnets…
December 7th, 2008I Would Kill for an Attention Span
I am all bummed out today. I completely forgot about the Pacquiao-de la Hoya fight. Boxing is the only sport I have the attention span to watch, and Pacquiao is someone I wanted to keep track of. Last night he pounded de la Hoya to bits, and I found out about it by reading an Internet headline.
De la Hoya is an interesting figure, because last year, a stripper released doctored photos of him, in which he appeared to be a transvestite. Ever since then, he has had to deal with the nickname “Oscar de la Homo.”
According to TMZ, when de la Hoya pointed out that the photos were fake, the stripper sued him. Knowing they were fake. They should have a Nobel Prize for gall.
Incidentally, can someone tell me why stripping is called “exotic dance”? What’s exotic about disrobing? Another thing: if you have to disrobe to make money dancing, aren’t you admitting you don’t really dance well? I assume women put the “dance” in this business, because women generally like to fantasize about being dancers. When women go to the gym, what do they put on? Exercise clothes? No, they put on dance costumes. Weird. You don’t see men at the gym, dressed like ballet dancers or the cast of Breakin’. Not heterosexual men, anyway.
The truth is, men would still pay strippers, even if they just stood there.
It’s a pretty sad way to make a living, especially after your kids (or grandkids) get old enough to realize what you do.
Yesterday, I had lunch with my father and my sister. That’s pretty remarkable. Things continue to improve. Eventually, my sister and I went to a Christian bookstore.
I guess I am not as good a Christian as I thought, because I could not help chuckling at the “Happy Birthday Jesus” lollipops, which were shaped like little birthday cakes. I still have some work to do. I thought of Ned Flanders.
The store had a little aisle labeled “Charismatic Interest.” I told my sister you weren’t allowed in that section unless you brought your own snake. I guess charismatics still don’t get much respect. The movement has had too many kooks and crooks.
I just checked, and it turns out Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker are charismatics. Great. I didn’t know that. If you don’t actually see a minister pray in tongues, it can be hard to figure out whether he’s charismatic.
It can be tough figuring out where in the church you belong. The charismatics seem to have a lot going on; they seem to experience God’s power daily, in a very direct way. On the other hand…Jimmy Swaggart. I don’t want to make a list of charismatics who are really embarrassing, but it’s not a hard thing to do. There are too many of them focusing people’s attention on how God can satisfy our earthly desires, and ministers like that don’t give nearly enough time to our obligations to God. On the other hand, the non-charismatic Bible-believing churches appear to understand duty very well, but compared to the charismatics, they seem sort of comatose.
Then there are the assimilated churches, where they ordain gays and tell us Jesus was just a positive thinker. If I only wanted positive thinking, I’d buy self-help books instead of Bibles. You can think positively and still enjoy all the sin you want. That’s not for me. Those churches aren’t churches. I want a living God who helps me when I’m in trouble and improves me and helps me help others and gives me eternal life. I don’t want Tony Robbins.
Finally, there are the old churches with saints and lots of structure. I cannot pray to another human being. I just can’t. Saul did that, and look what happened to him.
My hope is that the denominations will grow closer. Surely the charismatics can let go of the private jets and ridiculous prosperity preaching and hold onto the power of the Holy Spirit. I know many people from more traditional churches are opening up to the notion that God is among us, and that through the Holy Spirit, he is active in the lives of individuals. Maybe their numbers will increase.
I saw an interesting book about breaking curses. I didn’t read it, but the cover listed things that will ruin your life. I remember a few. Gossip, racism, failing to honor your parents, profiting from the mistreatment of the innocent, withholding tithes and offerings, and witchcraft. I can’t recall the others. The ones I remember seem pretty sound. I think my own family is screwed up largely because our cigarette tobacco killed so many people. That is profiting from the mistreatment of the innocent. You may claim it’s not, because smokers know what they’re getting into, but that wasn’t true before 1963, and even afterward, cigarette companies made sure their products were available to minors. They deliberately addicted kids, before they became mature enough to make wise decisions. And anyway, a pusher is many times more culpable than a drug addict, just as a prostitute is more culpable than a john. One party to the transaction acts out of weakness, in response to powerful temptation; the other acts in cold blood, purely for profit. Cold-blooded misdeeds are worse than misdeeds committed as a result of compulsion or external influences. That’s why contract killers get the death penalty and people who stab other customers in bar fights get two years.
I get so tired of people claiming johns are as bad as prostitutes. They’re not. The levels of guilt go like this, in increasing order: john, prostitute, pimp. That ought to be obvious. The same people who equate buying sex with selling it would never agree that we should punish casual drug users as badly as we punish dealers. There’s some fine logic for you.
In the cigarette guilt hierarchy, my family was somewhere between prostitute and pimp.
I bought a book. Josephus. He wrote about history, from a Jewish perspective. The book contains his complete works. I look forward to digging into it, although I will probably limit myself to bits that seem relevant to my religion. The book is huge. It would take a month to read it.
Maybe I’ll go crack it open. Seems like good reading for a Sunday.
December 7th, 2008 at 12:00 PM
I’ve never prayed tantherhuman being to my knowledge, n Catholic ever has. In fact it is strictly discouraged. I have asked people to pray for me, both iving and dead If you believe in ife after death, it isn’t that difficult to think of asking your dead uncle or brother or St John to pray for you, any more than it is for me to put a requeston my blog for people I don’t know to pray for someone elseTHEY dont know. A lot of protestant churches tell their congregations that Catholics pray to saints, but no “approved” prayer does anything but ask for the intercession of the saint on the behalf of the petitioner. Of course there are misguided people that follow every theology, but you have to choose what you want to believe. There’s a good page of info about this subject here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
This clarifies”official” church teaching. It has Bishop Brom’s imprimaturon it.
me, I choose to pray directly to the creator-but i also regularly ask departed friends and family members to pray for me as well.
December 7th, 2008 at 12:04 PM
I have heard that explanation, but it has never made sense to me.
December 7th, 2008 at 1:10 PM
“You may claim it’s not, because smokers know what they’re getting into, but that wasn’t true before 1963, and even afterward, cigarette companies made sure their products were available to minors.”
Actually, it’s been known for a while that tobacco was harmful. King James I spoke against it, so it’s not like it’s effects on general health weren’t known until the 20th Century. In any case, I think it’s a little much to believe that God is punishing your family for growing tobacco. If there’s punishment, it’s more likely to be for their own personal sins than the ones their ancestors committed.
December 7th, 2008 at 1:34 PM
As I said,you have to decide what you want to believe.
December 7th, 2008 at 2:33 PM
The explanation holds if the dead in Christ are not just alive, but also aware of our doings. You can argue that Revelation shows them aware of the troubles of the world, but that’s not quite the same as able to hear someone’s request. I am agnostic about the current (pre-resurrection) state of the dead in Christ, and so I don’t petition people
a) who I never met and
b) who happen to be dead and
c) who I have no firm reason to believe can hear me
to do me favors.
Josephus is a good read.
December 7th, 2008 at 3:07 PM
I think the biggest problem in the charismatic movement is the lack of self-policing. If Swaggert had to answer to a larger denominational body, then maybe some of the excesses could have been keep under control.
.
I realize that there is no controlling body for the charismatics, so such self-policing will probably never happen, but it’s how other denominations have (mostly) avoided the Tilton-style scenarios.
.
I generally appreciate the spirit of charismatic worship, so I am really only offering the above as an observation. Sometimes a mass-movement has it’s negative elements that just need to be ignored or repudiated.
.
Your mention of assimilated churches reminded me of an unfortunate Easter I once had. I was on a “forced” business trip in San Jose over an Easter and the sales person who had setup those dates felt bad about it, so he invited me to his “church”. I should have asked more about his church before saying “yes”, because once I arrived I found it was an “assimilated church” on the UC Berkeley Campus (yes that Berkeley). The church was run by a 60-year old ex-catholic priest who had married his 20-something girl-friend and an ex-lutheran lesbian minister (with her co-partner).
.
The communion elements were Sticky-Buns from 7-11 and a communial wine cup (i.e. everyone shared the same cup). I didn’t partake (who knows WHAT was floating in that cup under the Sticky-Bun grease???)
.
The service was bizarre to say the least (with no real mention of Christ; just social-justice nonsense). I would have left at the first sign of trouble, but the sales-guy had driven me there, so I was stuck.
.
I don’t really understand what attracts people to this style of service unless it’s so they can say “hey, I’m a Christian too. Accept me!” An actual worship of Christ doesn’t seem to be their motivation.
December 7th, 2008 at 4:15 PM
“Actually, it’s been known for a while that tobacco was harmful. King James I spoke against it”
.
King James didn’t know it caused cancer, COPD, heart attacks, SIDS, stillbirths, premature deliveries, hypertension, or strokes. Neither did the people who started smoking before 1963. But the people who grew and sold it knew it was a highly addictive drug.
.
Because my mother died from cancer caused by cigarettes, my father has told me a lot about his opinions on tobacco, and according to him, when he was young, the only risk people were generally aware of was that cigarettes would make you short-winded.
.
As for suffering because of something an ancestor did, it’s a theme that runs through the entire Bible. You can see it in the story of Adam, the curse Noah pronounced on Ham, the Psalms, the stories of the kings of Israel and Judah…I could list examples all day. The Bible is loaded with phrases saying things like “the seed of the wicked will be cut off.” The notion that God doesn’t punish families is a recent invention which contradicts the Bible, just like the notion that God never punishes people with plagues. God is not always nice. There are many Biblical stories showing that he is a horrifying enemy from whom no one can deliver you.
.
You can believe what you want. I have seen too many people who suffer wildly improbable runs of misfortune not to believe in curses, and I want my family to be blessed.
.
I think Jeff has the best solution to the spacing problem in my comments.
December 7th, 2008 at 4:33 PM
“I think Jeff has the best solution to the spacing problem in my comments.”
.
Thanks, but its only a period I’m going through 😉
December 7th, 2008 at 6:50 PM
The policing issue with Swaggart and Jim Bakker is that they were both Assembly of God. AG is a great denomination, but is very loose on oversight, by design. Almost more of a confederation.
I don’t know if you’ve heard of Jim Bakker’s post prison book, “I Was Wrong” but it’s everything the title indicates.
The Bible condemns communication with the dead (as Steve pointed out with Saul). I know that does not include Jesus, as He is alive (resurrected), and He is our “High Priest”, “constantly interceding for us”. The saints, who as Paul put it “sleep” are not resurrected yet.
I’m not picking a fight, Og, but I thought the whole thing about Catholicism was that everyone believed the same doctrine, not “cafeteria style” like us evangelicals.
There was a local talk radio host on the Christian station here in town who was rumored to have gone back to Catholicism. One day he has a Priest and a minister as guests debating whether you can know you are saved or not. I ended up agreeing with the priest who felt you could back out anytime you wanted to (Arminian).
I phoned in to question the host on some doctrinal issues of Catholicism vis-a-vis scripture and the host assured me that the things I brought up (praying to the saints, 9 first Fridays, indulgences, all the stuff I got from 12 years of altar boy/Catholic school pre-seminary) were not official doctrine but fiction conceived by local priests and nuns.
Two weeks later the host moderates a live debate (I attended) between a bona-fide, church certified, Catholic “Defender of the Faith” and a protestant theologian.
The Catholic guy gets up there and asserts that it’s doctrinal to pray to Mary, indulgences are valid, all the stuff I was raised on was doctrinal after all.
Yet I go to a Catholic mass and think I’m in a protestant service.
I’m not opposed to Catholicism, just the funny stuff, same as I’m opposed to Osteen, Dollar, Copeland etc.
I’d rather find fellowship around Jesus than look for reasons not to.
Steve, If this was too much, don’t post it.
We could talk about that truck you need, instead.
December 7th, 2008 at 7:01 PM
“As for suffering because of something an ancestor did, it’s a theme that runs through the entire Bible. You can see it in the story of Adam, the curse Noah pronounced on Ham, the Psalms, the stories of the kings of Israel and Judah…I could list examples all day. The Bible is loaded with phrases saying things like “the seed of the wicked will be cut off.” The notion that God doesn’t punish families is a recent invention which contradicts the Bible, just like the notion that God never punishes people with plagues. God is not always nice. There are many Biblical stories showing that he is a horrifying enemy from whom no one can deliver you.”
.
I am so screwed. I’m from a long line of tobacco growers and buyers of the weed. And my family is known for its bad “luck”, I have always wondered if we had a family wide curse. As far as I know we have no more family members in the business, do you think we can ever get out from under the weed curse? I can relate with you in another area, my Mom died of lung cancer, she smoked most of her life. My Dad has had a lot of heart trouble most likely from tobacco use.
.
Still, its hard to blame my grandparents for doing what was pretty much the only legal work to feed the babies.
December 7th, 2008 at 7:27 PM
I think I sound a little surer about this than I am.
.
The issue of blessings and curses that follow a person’s descendants is not one hundred percent clear to me. If you read the Bible in a superficial way, it appears to contradict itself. Here it will say a person will not be punished for another person’s sins, and there, it will pretty explicitly state that somebody’s descendants are cursed because of something that person did.
.
You have to read this stuff in pari materia. And I believe you have to allow for the possibility that different passages refer to different types of punishment. For example, I think it is extremely unlikely that God punishes anyone in the afterlife for sins committed by others. Yet it appears that he does punish the innocent descendants of transgressors while they live here on earth, and the reason is probably that there is no better way to punish someone than to afflict his children.
.
I agree with ministers who say that the actions of your ancestors can cause you terrible problems in your own life. That would be true even if there were no God and no such thing as a curse. But I also believe you have the power to free yourself through your own faith and obedience and, most importantly, knowledge.
.
Surely all those wonderful promises we see in the Psalms and the prophets and the New Testament are not withheld from people who repudiate the bad acts of those who came before them, and who live right and ask to be freed.
December 7th, 2008 at 7:46 PM
“But I also believe you have the power to free yourself through your own faith and obedience”
Absolutely. Jesus was sent to “set us free from the curse”.
Nonetheless, there are consequences for previous behavior, i.e. prison sentences, health issues, etc. But generational curses (“visiting the sins of the fathers unto the sons, etc”), if extant, are vaporized by faith and obedience to Jesus.
http://www.nireland.com/evangelicaltruth/generationalcurses.htm
seems to sum it up.
December 7th, 2008 at 10:23 PM
Steve – I would put it this way, a lot of things (specifically sins) that one commits have ripple effects down through his or her family. I don’t think it is a retribution so much as a tendency of problems to continue through multiple generations in the absence of some real intervention/turning along the way.
Yes, there are instances where God has indicated some sort of curse, but that doesn’t really seem to be the norm. On the other hand many sinful cultural/behavioral pathologies seem to run down through the kids for a long way.
December 7th, 2008 at 10:28 PM
“If you read the Bible in a superficial way, it appears to contradict itself. Here it will say a person will not be punished for another person’s sins, and there, it will pretty explicitly state that somebody’s descendants are cursed because of something that person did.”
That isn’t a contradiction. A different way of reading those two passages together is “the only one allowed to punish the child for the sins of the father is God.” It is similar to how God speaks of himself as a jealous God, but yet forbids jealousy and envy among his people.
The great thing about the charismatics is that they have a powerful and spiritual faith experience. The problem is that sometimes thats it. They’re the stony ground that grows quickly but then dies when they have no root. Not all of them are like that of course, but it seems to be the primary failure mode of that spiritual path.
December 7th, 2008 at 10:56 PM
Josephus wrote more from a Jewish perspective than others, but he wrote to keep himself alive… and paid by his sponsors who were slaughtering his countrymen. (Hundreds of thousands of Jews were slaughtered during the Bar Kochba revolts. http://tinyurl.com/5mbdfl ) Josephus didn’t write from the perspective of the Jewish scholars of the day. Still worthy of reading but should be taken with a grain of salt.
December 8th, 2008 at 12:02 AM
Well, I’ve been to one world’s fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard come over a seat of earphones.
BTW, if my grandson is struck by lightning as a result of this post, I will instruct my heirs and assigns to inform your heirs and assigns so that they can post a “HA ha” on this thread, albeit somewhat belatedly.
December 8th, 2008 at 12:08 AM
With no preview function, it’s difficult to know which html instructions work and which don’t. \\ apparently does, but \
December 8th, 2008 at 12:12 AM
…and they don’t. As Emily Litella used to say, “nevermind”.
December 8th, 2008 at 9:53 AM
re Sins of the Father: You’ll have to cite an AD example. Jesus himself faced this in John 9. You could argue that what he says relates only to that case, but you could also extend the example to all sin.
.
As for denominations – they’re a trap; a false distinction. Think in parameters, list as many as you can for a church, and you’ll see that you can’t divide churches neatly by denomination. There are spirit-filled Catholics and legalistic Pentecostals (probably.) That being said, churches that include Holy Spirit rituals and practices are clearly going to appeal to you more, so officially charismatic churches are the best place to start.
December 8th, 2008 at 9:57 AM
Where in John 9 does Jesus deny that children suffer for the sins of their ancestors?
.
Look for it if you want. It’s not there.
.
As for AD examples, the world is full of them right now.
December 8th, 2008 at 10:08 AM
The curse comes from unrighteousness, ie, disobedience to the Law, but we as Christians are freed from that curse, because it fell on Jesus.
Ga 3:10, “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’”
Ga 3:13, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.’”
II Cor 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
If you belong to Christ in newness of life, you don’t need to worry about curses.
December 8th, 2008 at 10:18 AM
It seems to me that there is a big difference between having a right and experiencing the application of that right. For example, Christians get sick. God often heals us, but if you seriously expect to be healed, you have to pray and see if you have anything to repent of.
.
I think other problems work the same way. You may have the right to be free from curses, but you shouldn’t expect to see any effect unless you obey and apply your faith. I believe we have to fight all our lives to get the things to which we are entitled.
December 8th, 2008 at 10:34 AM
“They’re the stony ground that grows quickly but then dies when they have no root. Not all of them are like that of course, but it seems to be the primary failure mode of that spiritual path.”
.
Hard to argue with that. It sounds painfully close to what happened to me.
December 8th, 2008 at 2:39 PM
Steve,
With all due respect –and I do have a great deal of respect for you– you really need to get out more, theologically speaking. The vast literature and experience of historical Christianity, and you dismiss it with cliches, and clearly no real engagement.
Be well.
December 8th, 2008 at 3:02 PM
When you say that, you ought to point out your connection to a Catholic missionary organization.
December 8th, 2008 at 4:02 PM
yeah, those kooky Catholics. It’s really all their fault. Worshiping statues, praying to saints, not accepting Jesus as their Personal Savior, not being Born Again properly, not using the right phrases in respect to the Holy Spirit, they obviously don’t have a clue. Personally, I think every last one of them is going to hell for all eternity, because everything they do is wrong, and they clearly don’t know how to worship God properly.
December 8th, 2008 at 5:40 PM
If it’s any consolation, nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition.
December 8th, 2008 at 6:30 PM
I didn’t know you were a boxing fan Steve. I’ll try and keep you posted on upcoming fights.
I’m presumptuous enough to recommend a couple of books you might like, “The Way” by Carlton and “The Mystery of the Church” by Bush. Both deal with Orthodoxy but are illuminating of the Christian faith regardless of ones ‘denomination.’ “The Way” in particular is fairly intellectually rigorous and I think you’d especially enjoy it.
December 8th, 2008 at 7:01 PM
I’m not sure, but I suspect that og might have been subtly sarcastic there. Hard to put my finger on it…
December 8th, 2008 at 7:58 PM
How cynical of you, Ed.