Know When to Fold ‘Em
November 18th, 2008M1 Carbine Question
Here’s a question. How well does an M1 carbine work when you shoot it with the stock folded?
I am considering getting one of these for home defense. It seems like a nice option. You fold it, put a big magazine full of carefully chosen rounds in it, attach a light, and keep it by the bed. You put electronic ear muffs next to it. When the bad person arrives, you put on the muffs, grab the gun, and get ready. If you end up in the same room with him, you turn on the light and shoot from the hip until he is no longer a threat. The compact size of the gun makes it easy to handle indoors. The flash and noise aren’t as bad as bigger guns, and you have your earmuffs. The added barrel length makes it easier to aim effectively than a pistol. The low recoil helps you stay on target. And you can have up to 30 rounds on tap without a magazine change.
But the scenario is less rosy if you can’t shoot with the stock folded. The gun becomes nearly as awkward as a full size rifle.
I have pistols for defense, but they’re inferior to long guns. They’re harder to aim, especially without the sights. It’s easier to shoot yourself accidentally. The capacity is limited. The stopping power is generally not as good as that of a long gun.
I am thinking the best configuration is a folding carbine with a light, laser, and red dot scope. There would be little practical use for the scope, but you might as well have it, just in case. The laser makes it easy to hit bad people in low light. The light illuminates the perp and, hopefully, makes it hard for him to see.
I’m not sure about that last part. It takes a really good light to blind someone in a dark room.
I was reading up on M1 carbines today, and I kept seeing an old bit of nonsense: “the sound of a pump shotgun racking will scare a burglar to death.” Why do people keep repeating this? It’s obviously a myth; common sense should tell you that. Every gun makes a sound when you rack or cock it. Why is a shotgun scarier than a 1911 or .357? Wouldn’t you be scared if you heard someone pull the bolt on a rifle? I sure would. I wouldn’t barge into the room armed with a potato peeler, relieved that the homeowner only had an AK-47. I’d run from a guy who just cocked a .25-caliber pistol. And if your gun is already cocked, you don’t need to work the mechanism to make a scary noise. You can just say, “Excuse me, but I have a big gun.” “Yo tengo Glock.” And you can add this: “I am also on PCP.”
Can we just stop talking about the magical noise a pump shotgun makes? It’s embarrassing to the gun-owning community.
You can buy vertical grips for the front of M1 carbines. It seems like a great idea, although they attach to the barrel. I hate anything that even MIGHT affect accuracy. Of course, I realize you don’t have to be a sniper when your assailant is inside your house. If you’re off by an inch, you will never know it. One company offers a combination light, laser, and grip for $75. The only thing that really scares me is the low price. I can just see myself, hiding in the living room from the Jamaican Mafia, flicking the switch on my laser and wishing I had bought a better one.
I assume you can shoot an M1 carbine with the stock folded, because Universal Arms used to make a version with no buttstock. But I thought I should check.
November 18th, 2008 at 1:33 PM
My home defense weapon of choice is a Mosberg 12ga with an 18.5″ barrell and a pistol grip. I also have a SureFire flash light mounted to the shotgun – that light will blind you in a dark room. Could care less about the noise it makes when pumping it. Next to it I also have a .380 I can bring along for backup.
November 18th, 2008 at 1:45 PM
What Jay said – precisely! My shotgun, my flashlight.
But for backup I have a .38 S&W snub with light, very LOUD JSP rounds in it (custom loads).
November 18th, 2008 at 2:11 PM
I have an M1 (post WWII vintage, used in Korea) with the classic wooden furniture. I am pretty sure it’d fire just fine with a folded stock on it – there just isn’t that much going on with the .30 round in there. You could always load some nice slow hollow points if you were worried about control.
November 18th, 2008 at 2:16 PM
For home defense, not much beats a pump shotgun in 12 or 20 gauge. With a 20″ barrel and extended magazine, you get 8 rounds of buckshot. If you need more than that in a home defense scenario, you’re pretty well screwed to begin with…
I have a Streamlight M3 mounted on my 870. It’s BRIGHT! And there are plenty of other quality weapon lights that will temporarily blind an attacker.
The Streamlight M6 is a light/laser combo: http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum1589.php
Not trying to talk you out of the carbine. It’s a great gun and would also serve well as an HD weapon. One of it’s main advantages would be less recoil. Although a 20 gauge isn’t all that stout in the recoil dept. I just prefer the shotty.
November 18th, 2008 at 2:44 PM
The M1 Carbine has reliability issues, penetrates external walls, and doesn’t have as much immediate stopping power as a shotgun.
The shotgun noise item isn’t a myth, shotguns operate louder and more distinctively than other weapons. You can explain away a slide operating or a hammer cocking, especially through a door or wall. But there is no mistaking about the sound of a pump action shotgun.
The twelve guage shotgun is the undisputed king of close quarters non-fully automatic long guns. This is the opinion of nearly every informed and experienced expert in the field. The 12 guage 00 buckshot load has 97% knockdown rate. The highest of any military or law enforcement cartridge used in small arms.
I don’t know if you have ever woken up in the in the middle of night to a noise in your home or ever felt that you where in imminent chance of dying, but forget the ear protection electronic or not. Your worried about your life, and that’s seconds and hearing that matter.
I must also state that many of the comments I read in this article are “embarrassing” to me as a gun enthusiast. The inferiority of handguns is not accurate. Shot placement will be the deciding factor no matter the platform. Many things about this article are irresponsible, uninformed, and dangerous. (Hip shooting is dangerous, ineffective, and irresponsible.)
If you would like me to explain myself or some of the other things I found wrong in this article you have my e-mail.
November 18th, 2008 at 3:18 PM
“shotguns operate louder and more distinctively than other weapons.”
If you wish to rely on scary noises to deter criminals, more power to you. If that worked, I would protect my house with a stereo. If noises worked, my other guns would do just fine. You can hear my 1911 racking two hundred feet away. Surely you’re not suggesting criminals only mind being shot, when the shooting is done with a shotgun.
“The M1 Carbine has reliability issues, penetrates external walls”
Concrete? Doubtful. And any gun capable of stopping a criminal will go through a flimsy wooden exterior wall.
“The twelve guage shotgun is the undisputed king . . . This is the opinion of nearly every informed and experienced expert in the field.”
Jim Cirillo would be surprised to hear that. Shotguns are extremely loud, they recoil off the target, and they produce a big flash.
“The inferiority of handguns is not accurate. ”
It absolutely, unquestionably is. They are harder to aim, they have less stopping power, and they have lower capacities. Like Jeff Cooper said, a pistol is something you use to fight your way to a rifle.
“Hip shooting is dangerous, ineffective, and irresponsible”
It’s not nearly as dangerous as trying to use pistol sights in a firefight. With a long gun held at the hip, I can hit a man at short range effortlessly, over and over. Not everybody sucks at hip-shooting.
Nothing annoys people more than attacking a cherished myth.
November 18th, 2008 at 3:20 PM
As Amateur said, criminals know what a shotgun being racked sounds like – it’s very distinctive.
A revolver being cocked is just some clicks, and is comparatively easy to miss, and the sound of my little Taurus .25 being racked is probably easily mistaken for the cat knocking something over.
Don’t forget that the common criminal usually knows almost nothing about firearms in general and has probably never even touched a bolt action rifle, let alone being familiar with the sound of one being worked.
As to price, well, injection molding is cheap. LEDs are cheap. Lasers are cheap. There’s no reason a clamp-on grip/light/laser should cost more than that, unless you want it to withstand being used as a hammer.
November 18th, 2008 at 3:21 PM
I think I can tell who has been repeating that silly shotgun myth, just from the comments.
November 18th, 2008 at 3:21 PM
What they said. Mossberg pump! About the most intimidating sound in the world. Although I do keep a Colt Trooper loaded with Rem Golden Sabers beside the bed. I practice a lot with it as well.
November 18th, 2008 at 4:01 PM
Shotguns are extremely loud, they recoil off the target, and they produce a big flash.
Two out of three of those points sound like advantages. But then my last shooting experience involved a .22 pistol and a potato cannon. Not simultaneously, though.
November 18th, 2008 at 4:24 PM
Why not the Saiga you were jonesing for? Want to scare anyone day or night, mount a green laser on any thing…a brick, the things work in broad day light to 300yards and at night for miles, really do look like a light saber. A good one is 350.00.
November 18th, 2008 at 4:27 PM
The Saiga is great. But indoors, I think a shorter, quieter, more easily aimed weapon with three times the capacity is better.
The more I think about it, the more I think trying to scare somebody with a sound is crazy. Optimally, you would want the criminal to be completely unaware you’re in the room, until you have the drop on him. Making loud noises is like waving a flashlight so the criminal can find you.
November 18th, 2008 at 4:42 PM
1. Why do you think police forces issue shotguns to their regular police officers? They generally only issue rifles to members of highly trained Tac teams or the like.
2. For many different reasons, you might offer up a prayer that you don’t have to resort to deadly force to protect yourself or your castle.
V/R J West
November 18th, 2008 at 4:46 PM
For years, Miami cops were issued .38 Special revolvers, while the criminals were using Glocks and Uzis.
Jim Cirillo was one of the best cops who ever lived, and he used an M1 Carbine.
November 18th, 2008 at 5:13 PM
Certainly not the final authority.. I think the racking sound is more about intimidation. Interviews of serial home invaders show their worst fear is encountering an armed homeowner. The MO relies mostly on their ability to intimidate the homeowner, the racking a round sound is immediate confirmation that the burglar has F*%#’d it away and is about to lose. The intent of most home invaders is to rob, not to die ala Saving Private Ryan style in your living room. I think the racking sound has some merit as a mental tactic that is worth a try before you start ventilating shitheads all over your Berber carpet. All bets are off if you’re dealing with robbers like the MS-13 psychopaths.
8 round Benelli M1.
November 18th, 2008 at 5:29 PM
What’s wrong with simply telling the burglar you have a gun? Why won’t racking a rifle or 1911 work?
November 18th, 2008 at 5:31 PM
The M1 Carbine needs no accessories.
You’ll want to test fire any ammo except US issue you want to use in your US Gummint carbine. Also test fire ALL ammo in non US Gummint carbines.
Homo Sapiens is genetically attuned to the sound of a pump action shotgun being cycled in a dark room. Any member of this species will experienc a bowel dump upon hearing this sound unless it’s his shotgun and he’s cycling it.
Gerry N.
November 18th, 2008 at 5:34 PM
See previous comment.
November 18th, 2008 at 5:57 PM
I have been following the comments for a few hours and I have a couple of observations. Over thirty years ago I had some good cop friends who worked a rough part of the city where I was living. Several times it was shared with me how fast the sound of a pump shotgun being racked could calm down the most unruly bar room situation. The police could yell and even blow whistles to no avail but racking one shotgun would bring on a deathly quiet, calm immediatly.
As for sound and flash when shooting a shotgun, the sound is a lot further from your ears than the discharge of a pistol and I shot skeet for years in a nightime league and never saw any flash to speak of from a shotgun. However I did shoot a .44 magnum at a squirrel in a creek bottom one time right at dusk and I was both blind and deaf for a while and to top it off I missed the squirrel.
In order to achieve any degree of reliable proficiency I would suggest that a decent amount of time be spent on the range and even further home work with an empty weapon would be in order just to know where all the pieces and parts are all the time.
I also hope and pray that none of us ever have to put our skills to the test in a life or death situation but if we do, let’s be familar with our weapon choice and prepared to make the right decisions to protect our families and ourselves.
November 18th, 2008 at 6:00 PM
My home defense weapon is a WW2 vintage M1 Carbine with a full stock. It is still short enough that I don’t worry about maneuvering in the house. I have it loaded with soft point rounds. I’m concerned about feeding hollow points. Remember it was designed for full metal jacket rounds. It is a wonderful fun gun to shoot and it points naturally for me. That said I think a shotgun is a better house gun. The only shotgun I own is a trap gun with a 30” barrel so the carbine wins by default. After reading about the 1986 FBI vs. Bank Robbers gun battle here in Miami, it’s clear that you want a rifle or shotgun in a fight. Even after multiple hits by hand gun rounds, the bad guys continued fighting and killing FBI agents. Another interesting point was that the one FBI agent armed with a long gun had trouble operating it. It was a pump shot gun and he had lost the use of one arm after being shot by the bad guy’s Mini 14. When he ran out of shells, a bad guy, who had already been shot through the lung by a 9mm and had also lost the use of his right arm, walked up to him and fired a hand gun at him three times at close range, and missed three times! It took 6 hits to kill one bad guy and twelve to kill the other. The bad guy with the Mini 14 killed two and severely wounded three of the eight FBI agents in the fight.
November 18th, 2008 at 6:02 PM
I would say they didn’t rack the shotgun loud enough, but that would be tasteless.
November 18th, 2008 at 6:49 PM
I told a burglar I had a gun but he said it sounded like I said “gub”. We debated for a while and then brought in some neighbors to listen to my accent.
November 18th, 2008 at 6:52 PM
Only OT even tried to answer the question.
November 18th, 2008 at 7:18 PM
I think ANY slide action would accomplish the intimidation. 1911, M1, pump 12 Ga. Any slide action would do. !2 ga. pump just seems to be the action most would choose.
Hitting the bolt release on any AR is nearly as loud, but not AS loud as an auto or pump-action shotgun.
I wouldn’t say anything to someone in my house in the middle of the night, and certainly not to someone I was shortly intending to shoot.
November 18th, 2008 at 7:28 PM
Hopefully you will not have the opportunity to use a carbine in the house. Either a carbine or pump shotgun will work effectively. Only the shotgun pellets will not leave the building, ball carbine ammo will drill through all walls and maybe into your neighbors house.
Best regards,
chalmitch
November 18th, 2008 at 7:35 PM
I’m almost sure the rifle will fire just fine with the stock folded.
On the shotgun vs. M1 in the home defense debate, shotgun wins. Forget the noise of loading a round, it just works better. You get the same benefit of a longer weapon without the reliability questions and don’t forget about killing your neighbors with a rifle round. And it will be a rifle round when you face a jury. I guess I did not have to tell you that part. Sorry.
Get a Mossburg or Rem pump, pimp it with lights and a folding stock if you need to and test it with whatever loads you think will work best in the home defense role. I like the idea of number 4 shot for the first 2 or 3 loads and 00 buck for the rest. The smaller shot will, for all intents be a slug for the first 10 or 15 feet, but will not kill your neighbors and the buck will finish anything the smaller shot did not take care of.
Buy the carbine anyway, they are fun and it’s always nice to own a piece of history.
November 18th, 2008 at 7:43 PM
Having said all the shotgun stuff above, my night time, go to gun is a Sig .45 with a big old slow bullet. I find it easier to keep a pistol close by than a shotgun but that is just me. I think back to the M1 Carbine, it has a fair amount of energy but the sectional density is high, it is long for diamter and with full metal jacket bullets, which is was designed to use it appears that they will zip through a lot of stuff, people and wall, etc.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:34 PM
What if the batteries in your electronic ear muffs are run down? Do you yell out, “Hey Mr. Burglar! There’s some AA’s in the kitchen drawer by the sink. Would you mind tossing me a couple so I can get these fancy ear muffs to work so I won’t hurt my ears while I’m shooting you full of holes?”
Actually, that might just work.
November 18th, 2008 at 9:37 PM
My bedside revolver is chambered in .45 Colt. I am thinking about loading it with some extra-loud, extra-high pressure, expensive Cor-Bon cartridges.
November 18th, 2008 at 10:34 PM
An M1 carbine will shoot just fine with the stock folded, but any inherent accuracy you get with a rifle will be significantly diminished since you no longer have the stock anchoring the rifle to your shoulder. But you knew that already…
You will gain some of that accuracy potential back with a red dot or laser sight assuming they are properly mounted and allow for the reduced distances inside a house.
As for the whole shotgun slide-racking folderol, If I hear someone in my house at night, I’m definitely not giving my position away by making a lot of noise. Sure, they might turn and run, but if it’s a tweaking meth-head on a psychotic bender, you just might have them start sending rounds your direction.
Intruders got their one & only warning when they passed by the “Intruders subject to deadly force” sign on the OUTSIDE of my house.
Man, I love Texas. Where else can a guy shotgun two burglar scumbags as they run from a neighbor’s house and have a Grand Jury no-bill you?
November 19th, 2008 at 12:27 AM
Hmm…have you given any thought to the question, “What gun would Jesus own?”
No? Good. You are not that far gone.
Truth is, most people are going to do one of two things if they actually confront a burglar in their home while armed with a gun
1) Hesitate and never shoot at all (These are the people who think that the ‘ka-chak’ of the pump will scare off a burglar. They are right, most of the time. The rest of the time, they get shot at by the goblin.)
2) Empty the magazine at said goblin. (This person is likely to cap guests stumbling in the dark for the bathroom. Suggestion: make any nightitime visitors wear luminous chemsticks for easy idenification.)
No one is going to really take just one shot.
November 19th, 2008 at 8:52 AM
“Hmm…have you given any thought to the question, ‘What gun would Jesus own?'”
He endorsed the sword, which is a much nastier and more lethal weapon than any civilian-grade firearm. You can’t split people like bananas with a Glock.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:06 AM
My 90lb German Shepard should be the first clue to a perp to try next door but, for home defense close range nothing better than my Remmington 12 gauge 18″ barrel Speed Pump. Of course the only warning sound I want the perp to hear is the firing pin hitting the primer, I’ll give em’ that much of a head start.
After that it is the S&W MnP 45 ACP or G37 45 GAP (handloads of course), last resort the G26 9mm baby Glock.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:16 AM
The other psych advantage I see to a shotgun is the burglar knows he has a pretty good chance of being hit, unlike the unreliable pistol.
Extra credit question for the commenters; Underline the sentence in the post that demonstrates that Steve doesn’t want a shotgun and shouldn’t be reccomended one.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:43 AM
I agree pretty much with everything said by El Capitan.
As a matter of fact, you should be able to remove the stock completely leaving only the pistol grip.
Personally I would forget the ear muffs. You would be surprised how fast events transpire and every second counts from the moment you realize you are threatened. The brief time it would take to put on the ear muffs can be better spent insuring you are ready for whatever comes.
I agree completely with not letting the intruder know you are there or making any sound whatsoever to give away your position. You have no idea what he will do if you speak or if you even make a threatening noise like pumping a shotgun. Better to just be prepared to deliver a life changing experience to the bad guys as a sort of surprise.
November 20th, 2008 at 1:00 AM
I have a home security-minded friend who has given me several gifts over the years.
Related question: what does one do with several machetes and a couple of bowie knives, assuming one is not actually Shiva?
December 1st, 2008 at 6:10 PM
I have two M1 carbines with 5 stocks: three are standard USGI wood, a “Choate Tool Corp” black plastic stock, and a replica USGI folding paratrooper. One of the USGI stocks is functional but quite battered and another is a new replacement stock purchased from the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP). The really beat up stock was on an M1 carbine purchased by my father through the NRA for $20 in 1964 as a gift for me from the ancestor of the CMP. I like the replica paratroop stock better than the non-folding plastic stock. Yes, you can shoot the carbine with a folding stock but not in Michigan. In Michigan the side folding paratrooper M1 carbine is apparently illegal. The pistol grip for the replica paratrooper stock is slightly too small for my large hands. The energy of the M1 carbine ammo is similar to the .357 mag. but it was designed to shoot military ball ammo. A .357 magnum cartridge has its best anti-personnel performance with hollow point bullets. If you get some good recommendations for hollow point or soft point carbine ammo for self defense please tell me about it. I think Kim du Toit is a strong believer in the M1 carbine for self defense, you should send him an email. I prefer the pump shotgun, the ARs or AKs over the carbine for home defense. I completely agree the the pump shotgun noise for intimidation of the bad guys is quite lame. I would like to sell or trade the Choate black plastic stock. I prefer the M1 carbine or M1 Garand in original wood stock not plastic. The last time I shot the M1 carbine with the folding stock was in Alabama 10 years ago. It would certainly be accurate enough for across the room and better than a handgun.