More Gun Thoughts
April 7th, 2010Grendel Too Weird
Here’s what I’m thinking, assuming I eventually go through with this craziness: .260 Remington. Unlike the Grendel, it’s a real high-powered round, not a weird technological triumph resulting from stuffing ten pounds of powder into a five-pound bag. I think. I may be wrong about everything, but that’s how it looks.
The .260 has better ballistics than the Grendel for long-range shooting, and you can make .260 ammunition from readily available .308 cases. If my facts are right, the .260 is more realistic for hunting, too, so I would look less like a doofus using it to shoot deer or taking it out west to exterminate prairie dogs or coyotes. And if I ever need to use it for self-defense (exceedingly unlikely), it will do the job better.
The Grendel seems to be an amazing round, because you can carry one rifle and do a number of things well with it. But what if you don’t want a Swiss Army Rifle? What if you want one gun for this, and another gun for that? Seems like the .260 is for people who like guns who do their particular jobs very well.
There is another round called the 6.5 Creedmoor, but it’s weird, so it would probably be a pain buying or making ammunition for it. And there is a Lapua something or other which is nearly the same thing. The .260 looks like a better choice, if I man up and buy dies for it. Using storebought ammunition, it’s expensive.
People are recommending the .308, but I have this fantasy that one day, I’ll be able to practice at distances where the .260 outshines the .308. Maybe that’s stupid, but guns should be fun, shouldn’t they? Why buy one that slaps you in the face with boring reality? I already did that twice. I bought Glocks.
If I were getting an AR15 and no dedicated long-distance gun, I would almost definitely get a Grendel version. It seems like it should do everything the 5.56 will do, plus most of what a .308 will do. But the .260 comes in a different (non-AR15) package. DPMS makes it. I don’t know if it’s considered an AR10 or what. They call it an “LR-260.”
Interesting info for Grendel fans: as mentioned earlier, some people are making Grendel rifles without the name “Grendel.” The name is a registered mark, but there is no way to bar people from making guns that fire the round, or from making the rounds themselves. Crazy. I already mentioned Les Baer’s version of the Round Which Dare Not Speak its Name. It turns out there is also one called 6.5 CSS, made by somebody named Lothar Walther.
I also read a forum post in which some guy claims Bill Alexander (the Grendel guy) has tried to get Wolf to quit making Grendel ammunition, due to some kind of fouling issue. That would eliminate the only cheap Grendel ammo available.
Here’s some amusing news. Remember how I decided I had the hammer in my PSL installed backwards? I took the gun apart, which is really a pain, and I put the hammer in the other way. It was even worse than before. Then I looked at the Red Star Arms diagram of the hammer again. Hey, guess what? I confused right with left. The diagram was a left-side view, but in my head, I decided the right side of the gun was the left side. So, in short, today I took the hammer out and installed it again, backward.
This has happened to me before. Oddly, I think it’s a consequence of being smart. Sometimes I tend to think of right and left as interchangeable. It’s hard to explain. I believe it started happening after I studied physics for several years. Right and left are arbitrarily defined (macroscopically, at least–don’t be a wise guy and post irritating comments about the universe’s inherent “handedness”), and once you start thinking of them that way, you can do some pretty stupid things.
I have had the same problem, confusing numbers with their reciprocals. I confuse 2 and 5 sometimes, because if you put a decimal point by 5, it becomes the reciprocal of 2, and it also works the other way around. If you want to multiply something by five, divide it by two and move the decimal. It’s easier. But if you start thinking this way, eventually you will leave a waitress a 50% tip and have to run back inside a restaurant before she picks it up.
It’s strange, but being smart can make you stupid.
The upshot here is that the trigger is still no good. I emailed Red Star to see if they could help.
I have been looking for 7.62×54 ammunition. I’ve read good things about Bulgarian surplus. Supposedly it will hold 1.5 MOA in the right gun, so that’s good enough for me. I also read a blog post by a Finnish military marksman who says the PSL will shoot better than that. I think. Apparently, you can improve it by getting the barrel off the lower handguard so it doesn’t push against the barrel when it heats up. Maybe the accuracy figure is wrong, but I have no reason to doubt this guy. A Youtuber has put up a number of PSL videos in which he gets 1 MOA accuracy with Bulgarian surplus.
I can’t figure out why the Russians won’t sell 7N1 ammunition any more. It’s not like we’re going to use it to shoot Putin. I wish I had bought five cans of it back when it was cheap. The Finnish guy claims 7N14 (the newer version) is not that great. Over 1 MOA, at best. He says to use Lapua 7.62x53R. I’ll just bet that’s cheap. I’m checking. The 180-grain (too heavy for the PSL) is $2.50 per round, so I assume 148-grain is about the same.
You can get Bulgarian ammunition made in 1953, in pretty brass cases. It’s a little more expensive than the newer stuff in steel, but you get to keep the brass. Down side: you can’t reload it unless you’re willing to deal with Berdan primer pockets. So forget I mentioned it.
I think Bulgarian is looking like the way to go. If I can get the gun to shoot. You can’t complain about a 20-cent round that will hit a lemon reliably at 100 yards. If the Finnish guy and the Youtuber are on the level, that should be possible.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:45 PM
You are tracking the right direction but .260 is no more common than 6.5 Grendel and just as expensive, at least in my area.
DPMS and Armalite make AR10s in .338 Federal, a powerhouse but short range shooter, works best at ranges under 300 meters.
The Romak can be made to shoot, heck, any rifle can be made to shoot, but you will still be dealing with the barrel heat and a fairly waspy barrel whipping around once free floated, complete with heat risers once you go through a couple full magazines at sustained fire rates.
OK for a sniper who will fire one or three shots slow fire and move on.
Not so good for a pleasure shooter wanting to spend a day at the range with a couple hundred rounds.
The PTR rifle I mentioned can also be had in .243 Winchester as can the AR10 rifles.
If you want a 500 meter shooter that can also handle sustained fire heat and do so accurately, this is another choice you may contemplate.
Ammo runs about a buck a shot for factory and is easily reloaded too.
One of my all time favorite hunting calibers.
April 8th, 2010 at 1:00 AM
Steve, do kindly take my (and many other’s) advice, and stick with the standard size AR-15 format.
The larger AR-10s (of which the .260 is but one), run into factors of scarce parts availablity. Each manufacturer tends to do it “their own way”, and there’s really not a fixed “Mil-Spec” pattern to their schemes.
You can handload Grendel from 7.62×39 brass, upon which the round is based. You might need to fireform them after die-sizing, but you can and that’s the point.
Or, you can opt for the 6.8 Remington, which fits the standard AR-15 format, and performs nearly as well.
OR, you can ditch the exotica, get a 1:8 twist, eighteen or twenty inch barrel, and shoot 62 to 77 gr. bullets from your 5.56 rifle, and absolutely drill whatever you need to out to 600 yards and beyond. 800 yards isn’t impossible.
No, you won’t have the downrange engergy of the bigger bores, but you also won’t find any volunteers to be target holders at those ranges. The round is still plenty lethal out there, even if it’s not Marvin the Martian’s “Earth Shattering KaBoom!”
The whole point of the AR system in your aresenal is balance. You want to balance the precision of a fine sniper rifle,the rate of fire of your CZ, the highest availablity of interchangeable parts and ammo unmatched in the history of modern arms, and the terminal effectiveness of modern (post Vietnam era) loadings, which yes are bested by 6.5, 6.8 and other chamberings, but at the absolute sacrafice of parts commonality and ammo availability.
Start Out With everything in 5.56. Build your system. Then, you can add upper assemblies in the flavor of your choosing. Piston systems. Nearly endless variety of calibers, including .22 conversions for cheepO practice.
This is the one project you’re lookng at where it the adage: “The Perfect is the Enemy of the Good”, applies, and that, tenfold.
Get established with the good. Then, just like accessories such as drill vices, precision crosscut table saw sleds and such, you develop your AR to suit where your needs take you.
Avoid the esoteric like the plauge, it will prove to be your enemy in this project, espeically in the early stages. There’s pleny of room for that later, after you’ve covered the basic system’s essentials.
Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX
April 8th, 2010 at 5:14 AM
I loved your 5 and 2 analogy …I thought I was alone in the universe. Now here’s some help for right and left… remember the “right hand rule” and Gaussian Surfaces in Physics?
April 8th, 2010 at 7:34 AM
The .260 Rem is, IMO a great round. I have two bolt action match rifles chambered in 6.5-08 Panther that is basically the same chamber. Manageable recoil and great down range ballistics. I can’t use the match guns anymore so I think I’ll sell one and convert the other to a hunting rifle.
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I feel like a prayer bum asking again but please add my Dad to your prayers, he is getting a heart cath today.
April 8th, 2010 at 9:43 AM
This is starting to remind me of the Great B&D Workmate Decision.
April 8th, 2010 at 9:50 AM
BTW, last year’s winner of the Natl. Matches Long Range shot a 6.5×284, just in case you wanted to throw a super-wildcat into the mix.
April 8th, 2010 at 3:05 PM
I like what Jim says, but you might want to start with a piston version, when you can settle on which one.
April 8th, 2010 at 3:50 PM
“I believe it started happening after I studied physics for several years.”
Sadly, it started a lot earlier for me. Teachers told me the way to tell your right hand from your left was to hold the pointer finger up and the thumb out, and whichever formed an “L” was the left hand.
My problem? They were both “L”s, one was just turned around. I’m holding out hope that means I’m actually smart…
April 8th, 2010 at 4:18 PM
Ed, the way one guy put it to me, and it made sense, is that everybody’s piston is going to be different, and spares are therefore going to be more precious – in the event of a scenario. Kinda changed my way of thinking on it.
April 8th, 2010 at 5:56 PM
OK, Scott makes sense too.
April 8th, 2010 at 8:20 PM
Yes, the “big AR” can be a pain because of all the one off parts. The same is true with the “little AR” if you go with the more exotic rounds again more one off parts. I have been accused of the golf bag shooter syndrome, as I have different sticks for different jobs but if I were forced to have one rifle(and maybe some accessory’s for same) the AR works well with all the combos that can be set up with one lower. Even rimfire. I wanted to build a mid length upper this year but good old IR$ will be taking that and much more next week.
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With all the stuff you have in your garage all you need to do AR builds are a few small tools. You can make some of them but a few are so cheap to buy I’ll bet the material to make them will cost more than just buying. I have seen some AR’s that the owner claimed to have assembled with pipe wrenches and they worked fine.
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Can you tell I like these conversations?
April 9th, 2010 at 12:33 AM
Go with a standard-compatible AR-15 in 5.56mm. Flat top upper for 3 or 4X fixed power scope or removable handle/rear sight. Learn and practice until your only limitation is your equipment.
Please deposit $US0.02
Swiped from hellinahandbasket.net- seemingly the picture did not survive copy/paste.
Let us say that we can equip a bullet with a brain, and put some eyes on it. What would your average house look like to that projectile?
(Picture source.)
Wait a minute! I’m trying to say that a bullet sees a house as mostly open air, with only the wooden frame being at all noticeable? Yeah, that is about it.
April 9th, 2010 at 9:27 AM
I didn’t even think of the self-build option. Here we go:
http://mujahadeenar15a2.tripod.com/
Two itches scratched at one time — metalshop & boomsticks. Very efficient.
April 9th, 2010 at 10:11 AM
What ever AR variant you decide to go with (we know you ARE going to get one!), stay away from the cheapo metal cased ammo like Wolf. Broken extractors are no fun.
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Don’t get me wrong, I love the metal cased stuff for my commie guns. But the AR is a completely different animal. Some people will swear metal ammo is fine in the AR. But I’ve read of too many problems to use it in mine.
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I think Chris Byrne has a write-up on his blog about the issue.
April 9th, 2010 at 11:34 AM
Scott, the 6.5×284 is the King Kong of long range rounds…… well, those that aren’t at or above the .338 Laupa benchmark.
Problem with the 6.5×284 though, is a comparatively short barrel life. Throat erosion is epic with that one, just as it was with the .264 Winchester Magnum. Same bullet, actually. Just different cases. And similar ballistic performance.
Back to topic though. Steve. Stick with the “A” game players in choosing your platform. My list is not exhaustive, but it’ll be a good start. Others can add to it, or editorialize on it, but I’ll put it out here for you.
Best of the Best.
Wilson Combat
Les Baer
Daniel Defense
Top “Production” ARs
Rock River
Smith & Wesson
Bushmaster
Arma-Lite
Colt
Good Enough for Most
DPMS (been some problems with soft internal metals
Olympic Arms (great barrels, ups/downs over the years in quality otherwise)
AVOID LIKE THE PLAUGE
Century Arms
Hi-Standard
Any “never heard of ’em” or private-brand system.
Let the AR flame wars begin, or ?
Seriously though, the list NEEDS expanding, and I’m not conversant with every AR platform out there. I’ve handled the Ruger, and it’s overall, VERY nice, but the time/rounds/endurance jury hasn’t had enough time to deliberate on it’s standing in the marketplace.
I’m in agreement with Scott also. Avoid the pistons. Not ’cause they’re bad, but just because they’re not standardized. If the .mil did the acceptance trials and “fixed” one system as the new MILSPEC, then I’d move piston systems up into consideration. Until then however, there’s just too many non-compatable piston formats out there.
Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX
April 9th, 2010 at 11:57 AM
I have nothing to add to that list of Jim’s except maybe Stag if you’re a lefty — no clue on the quality, though. Personally, I’m infatuated with the newish S&W MP-15, which seems attainable for a poor hayseed like me, quite unlike a Wilson Combat, which causes me to drool. Long Machine & Tool make quality rifles, too, custom stuff. S&W use their flat-top upper and I think their flip-up sights, too.
Jeez, I could go on forever — I’ve looked at enough of them that I’m utterly confused on what to buy. Frankly, I think of the AR as what would be my throwdown CQBR. I’m just not in love with that .223, but I acknowledge the utility of it, and the mil-spec-ish AR as the way to shoot it.
April 11th, 2010 at 12:17 AM
Wolf makes high quality inexpensive ammo for the grendel.
April 13th, 2010 at 10:59 PM
Jim gave you excellent advice. My experience with the Grendel is that it is an excellent round with a bit more bite at the far end than most of the other AR-15 type rounds. It’s likely that it does so while beating up one’s toys a bit more than does the 5.56, but I didn’t see any special problems with mine. Depending upon what one wants, the wear difference should be minor. It’s fun, accurate and no different to maintain than is the 5.56. Given that, if your goal is to shoot accurately out to 600 yards, then the 5.56 can run right alongside any other round using 80 grain bullets out of an 8:12 or a 6.5:12 twist barrel. The AR base itself is quite fine now that it has matured and is as reliable as any rifle on the line.
I’m going to make a guess here and that’s all that it is so…. My guess is that for quite a while to come, the standard AR design will consistently shoot tighter groups than will any of the piston designs. That is based on nothing more than just a recognition of the maturity of the design. Additionally, if the piston designs would shoot better, the across the course shooters would be snapping them up as fast as they could. So far, that hasn’t happened. The regular AR (match rifle) rules out to 600 because of it’s reliability and accuracy. Good bolt rifles run fine, but require a bit more dedication to the game than most casual shooters want to devote to practice.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Woody