Chains of Command
February 4th, 2010Parallel, or Knotted Together?
It’s a beautiful day, and I feel fantastic, and I just had to have some more coffee and goof off, so I’m writing again.
Last night, our church had a guest speaker. No point in saying who he is, but he runs a megachurch.
I was working as an “armorbearer,” which means I wander around with an earpiece, aggravating people. I tell them to quit propping the fire doors open. If an armed criminal comes in and tries to take the offering, I stand on a chair and scream in a high-pitched voice until he goes away. Stuff like that.
The sermon didn’t get off to a great start. He told two jokes we had heard the previous week from another evangelist. I don’t think anyone told him that, but the crowd laughed nervously.
His message, as I understand it, was this: we are supposed to “release” angels to help us. He said he did this all the time, and it was how he got a huge church with rich tithers.
I am extremely leery of this stuff. To me, it borders on sorcery. I have read the entire Bible, and I can’t recall a single instance of a godly person commanding an angel, unless yelling at demons counts. The impression I get from angelic encounters in the Bible is that the angels are polite and helpful, but that they really don’t want us getting close. They get upset when we kneel and bow. They don’t offer to serve us. They make it clear that they serve only God. One supernatural visitor told Joshua he was not on Joshua’s side. He said he led God’s angelic army. That’s pretty blunt. Joshua was a very righteous person, and the visitor (probably Jesus, because he received worship) wanted him to understand that there was a difference between being on God’s side and being on Joshua’s side. In any case, he made it very clear that Joshua’s army and God’s army were different organizations.
The angels killed the Egyptians when Moses crossed the Red Sea (according to some), but Moses didn’t tell them what to do. Presumably, angels destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, but they didn’t need Abraham and Lot to command them. The angel that heralded the conception of John the Baptist was downright cranky with Zechariah. He made him mute. The angels that appeared at the tomb of Jesus didn’t offer to do anything for the disciples. An angelic army helped David, but he did not get to talk to them.
Jesus told Peter that what he bound or loosed on earth would be bound or loosed in heaven. Many Christians think this means we can “bind” and “loose” events and angels. But the Jews interpret it differently. Messianics say it only means Peter, like rabbis before him and the Popes that followed him, was given authority to decide what was right or wrong. So if he made a mistake with regard to doctrine, people who obeyed him were excused, because God would back him up.
That’s a troubling thought, because it would suggest that all of us should belong to the Catholic or Orthodox churches, with all of their problems and errors.
Anyway, the guy I heard last night said this gave him the authority to loose angels. I am not ready to accept that. I have heard another prominent preacher say the same basic thing, and I don’t like it. It’s like the saints; it reminds me of voodoo. You command (or ask) spirits other than God to do stuff for you.
On the other hand, asking God to send angels to do things for us is very scriptural. Jesus made it clear that he could do that. He said he could call for legions of angels to protect him, so presumably, there is nothing wrong with asking God to send angels to make things work out for you. God promised us angelic help in the 91st psalm.
So the message I got last night was this: don’t forget to ask God to send his angels to fight for you. That, I think, is safe. But you will never catch me telling an angel to do anything. It scares me to death. I guess it’s like calling the police. It’s okay to ask the dispatcher to send a car, but you can’t call the cops directly and order them to come to your house.
I think there would be big problems if angels had to listen to us and do what we told them. It would be like giving Somalia the hydrogen bomb.
Last night I started wondering what I would do, if my church got into serious heresy. Then I remembered what happened twenty years ago. My church made mistakes, and I quit, and in the end, I was the loser. I think this angel stuff is unstable dynamite in a truck without shocks, but I will not quit again.
Every church has error. You have to latch onto the best church you can find, and relax. Maybe sometimes you have to turn up your nose at something it offers. I’m not sure. How much faith are we supposed to put in our earthly authorities? Division is bad, but becoming a slave to the erroneous doctrines of men can be worse. What is the greater sin: dividing the church, or practicing idolatry in a church that has lost its way? The Bible says rebellion is as bad as witchcraft, which is idolatry. But does that include rebellion against a badly confused church, or does it only mean rebellion against God himself?
Bringing evil doctrine into a church can be rebellion, which makes things even less clear.
The big win I see here is that I have matured enough not to let something like this blow me off the deck of the boat. That’s more important than resolving nonessential issues of doctrine.
February 4th, 2010 at 1:32 PM
Talk to your pastor and other groups you belong to about it. I’m sure that many others feel the same way.
February 4th, 2010 at 1:43 PM
Whenever I say I’ve read the entire Bible, I remember 1 & 2 Chronicles and wonder if I’ve told a lie.
February 4th, 2010 at 4:10 PM
Having gone to Catholic school from first through tenth grade, I can tell you that with the saints, you are not asking them to do things for you, you ask them to pray to God on your behalf.
February 4th, 2010 at 4:20 PM
Praying on your behalf is doing something for you.
February 4th, 2010 at 4:56 PM
Your take on sorcery is good. Saul went to the witch of Endor, got an earful from Samuel and then had a bad end. OK, no angels involved, but the presumption to command spirits or to conjure up the dead is. God’s will be done.
February 4th, 2010 at 5:06 PM
What do we need angels to order around for. We have the Holy Spirit.
Scriptures says He will comfort and help in all situations.
I think I would call my pastor on who he is opening the pulpit to.
I traveled in that crowd of phonys and I observed them close up and personal. They are a bunch of snake oil salesmen.
They be ordering angels around but they aint God’s angels.
February 4th, 2010 at 5:18 PM
Last paragraph is the best one. Hang in there.
February 4th, 2010 at 5:33 PM
I was in a church years ago where the pastor said some things I found wrong. I was a deacon and so was my best friend. He agreed with me, but his advice was “Chew the straw, spit out the sticks”. I felt it was good advice. Eventually, when I talked to the pastor about one of these issues, the pastor kicked me out of the church and instructed the others to shun me.
I saw my former best friend years later and he told me how far off the deep end they went before they woke up and left.
I believe the loosing and binding was a rabbinical concept of setting rules that all the apostles were privy to. This is best explained when they ruled on the gentiles (“Don’t eat blood, strangled things, etc”).
February 5th, 2010 at 2:23 AM
“it would suggest that all of us should belong to the Catholic or Orthodox churches, with all of their problems and errors.”
Absolutely 100% incorrect regarding the Orthodox Church, which is an APOSTOLIC, not papist, organization. All of the patriarchs in the OC can trace their offices back to the apostles, not merely Peter alone. These patriarchs meet every few centuries in councils to decide questions of Church dogma. Rome’s attempts to enact unilateral changes (based, it is true, on authority they–Rome– believed was conveyed by the office of Peter) led to the separation of East and West, Catholic and Orthodox. The two are now as different from each other as Orthodoxy is to Protestantism. That is to say, Catholicism and Protestantism are far, far more similar to each other than 1) Catholics and Protestants will ever realize and 2) than either is to the OC because neither is similar at all to Orthodoxy. And I do mean not at all.
Also–gotta say I take a little umbrage at the alleged “errors”
of the OC, although you later soften this by stating that every church has errors. True enough. Churches are made up of imperfect and sinful humans.
However, if you are speaking of errors of dogma then please understand that you are talking about THE Church, the one in the East that was founded by those that physically walked and talked with Christ. The Church whose changes and developments can be easily tracked through the centuries because so very little has changed. The Church that is no doubt the most conservative institution in history.
This is the Church that canonized the Bible (i.e. decided at synod which books would and would not be included). Please note that this is the same Bible that many of the neo-Protestant organizations, bereft of both irony and knowledge of Church history, now attempt to follow as “sola scriptua.” Sheesh. Except that the Protestant Bibles are missing a few OT books, thanks to the mistake made by Luther regarding temple services.
I would rather read, follow and learn from the great fathers and saints of the Church and their 2000 combined years of study, insight and knowledge–men who dedicated their entire beings to God,who built on tradition and ancient understanding, who preserved this knowledge through unimaginable persecution and who maintained the traditions and connections from the early days of worship, hidden in the catacombs of Rome and the hills of Turkey– than study the interpretations and stylings of some guy out of Bible college at the Protestant church down the block, who sits on his couch and decides for his own self what the scriptures mean. And, of course, the next guy (or gal! ) preaching down the at the next church will have his or her interpretation, and so on, and so on…madness.
Ever wonder why the Church uses liturgical worship? Because most of the early Christians were Jews. When they set about designing how to worship, they worshiped as the Jews did then (and sometimes worshiped with them). This is why the OC has its rituals and liturgical devices. These are the same rituals and liturgical devices that all Protestant churches try to mimic (doxologies, creeds, anointings, etc) like children playing at church. These things have deep and ancient significance in the context of Orthodoxy. Consider picking up an Orthodox Study Bible. I think you’ll be impressed with the insights that 2000 years of sole dedication can provide.
http://www.conciliarpress.com/books/orthodox-study-bible
February 5th, 2010 at 2:32 AM
One last thing. In Orthodoxy, we don’t have to worry about issues regarding doctrine–from the role of angels to the indivisibility of the Holy Trinity. These questions were answered centuries ago (or else the Church declares them a Holy mystery and don’t worry about it ’cause no human will figure out the answer)). By guys who had quite a bit on the ball, spiritually speaking. Many of whom were martyred for Christ.
February 5th, 2010 at 3:12 AM
I think you are correct. This sounds like nonsense. Probably will be corrected somehow. Sometimes pastors don’t know what is going to be preached by a guest.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:00 AM
“All of the patriarchs in the OC can trace their offices back to the apostles, not merely Peter alone. These patriarchs meet every few centuries in councils to decide questions of Church dogma.”
.
Not unless they lived to be centuries old.
.
Also, you’re talking about people who hand down doctrine based on intellectual analysis, which is the wrong way to do it. It’s exactly what the Jews did between Malachi and Jesus, and I think you know how Jesus felt about it.
.
Scholars can’t penetrate the mind of God using reason. If that were possible, Satan would have done it, but the Bible shows that God is able to fool him at will.
.
Spiritual matters are explained by the Holy Spirit alone, and the church managed to get rid of Holy Spirit baptism a very long time ago, so a lot of respected authorities were flying blind.
.
Saying “in the name of the Holy Spirit” when you water-baptize is not “Holy Spirit baptism.” Baptism with the Spirit is a fundamental change, different from water baptism, in which God comes to live inside you and gradually changes you to be like him. It may take place during, before, or after water baptism, but it’s not the same thing.
.
Probably best not to get into a pointless argument about whether the saints are idols. I would not dare pray to one, but I know I can’t convince old-church adherents that asking dead people to pray for them IS prayer, or that the total lack of scriptural support for the saints means anything. They always point to the scholars and authorities who came later and supposedly augmented or superseded scripture.
.
Christians should never look down on Jews. We have our “Talmud,” too, and it causes just as many problems.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:06 AM
I should point out that this thing about “releasing angels” may be an example of post-scriptural, man-made doctrine that leads out of God’s will. It seems like Satan loves convincing us we should deal with spirits other than God, whether they are angels, demons, pagan “gods,” saints, or lwa. I would hate to see angels turn into our “saints.”
.
The charismatic churches have error, and unless God saves us from ourselves, we will be just like the churches that came before us. The error will increase until someone has to break away and start a new movement. Satan has a strong record of corrupting churches. I don’t want to claim we are immune or express pleasure that other churches seem to have worse problems. That’s like begging God to withdraw his favor, and I have danced on that thin ice before.
February 10th, 2010 at 10:39 AM
No group is perfect. Non-essential stuff must be taken with the grain of salt and, in effect, ignored.
.
Essential stuff? I can see that rising to the level of leaving a particular church – but only to go to a different one.