Pistol Paradigm Shift
May 27th, 2010Time for 9mm to Go?
I wanted to write the third installment in the story of my trip to Washington for the National Day of Prayer, but I’m not feeling it right now. I got my reloading press working last night, I have piles of brass and powder and primers, and I want to crank out some .38 Super ammunition.
Yesterday while giving the birds some out time, I watched one of those reality shows featuring security videos and such. They showed a nutcase shooting up a tow yard office with an AK and a 9mm pistol. Learned a few things.
First of all, outer walls are really bad cover. I knew that already, from people yammering at me about it in comments, but it was really something to see it proven on video.
The tow yard was in a place called Lake City. I can’t find a Lake City Towing in Florida, using the web. There’s one in Wisconsin. If it’s the one in Florida, the walls are probably concrete. In any case, the rounds went through with no problem, nailing a lady in the rear end.
They had some kind of clear barrier between the office and the waiting area, and I guess it blocked bullets. But the wall below it was worthless. They probably didn’t think about reinforcing it when they added the plastic barrier. And the nut was able to shoot through the little hole where they passed papers and money back and forth.
If this character had been a good shot, he would have killed several people.
When the cops came, one pretty much emptied a pistol into him, but he kept making trouble until an employee came out and shot him some more. The shooter still lived to be jailed.
I’ve seen more than one video like this. Some criminal forces the cops to shoot, and it takes seconds or minutes for him to go down, even with multiple hits. During that time, the criminal can kill.
It makes me wonder if 9mm is a good idea. I like my Glock because it’s portable, super-accurate, and reliable, and it holds 11 rounds. But will it save me in a pinch?
I carry nice Cor-Bon ammunition, which is supposed to cause all sorts of damage inside perps, even in 9mm. If you can make someone bleed internally to a degree that it causes them to lose consciousness, you can put them down in a hurry. That’s the theory. But does it work? I feel like I ought to go hog-hunting and find out.
I have considered carrying a 1911, in either .38 Super or .45. The .38 Super is nearly as deadly as .357 Magnum, and the .45 is also excellent. But a big 1911 is a little showy for church, and the rest of the time, it’s just plain heavy. Maybe a compact Glock in .45 is where I need to be. Or the dreaded and disrespected .40, which is definitely better than the 9mm and has a similar capacity. I wonder if Glock does 10mm. That would be just about perfect. People moan about the recoil and controllability, but I have not had any problems handling high-recoil pistols.
Should I keep a shotgun in the truck? A short gun loaded with 00 buckshot would be much better than a pistol, if I got caught in one of Miami’s famous traffic-accident altercations.
An AK pistol would be hard to beat. Cheap and effective. Short, legal barrel. Lots of rounds. And if you lose it to a thief, you won’t lie awake weeping.
I’m also rethinking my ideas on pistol-grip shotguns. I have read that they’re impossible to control, but if you check out Youtube, you’ll see people firing them with very good accuracy, for short-range purposes. A reasonably talented shooter should be able to hit a perp reliably at fifty feet or less, over and over, unless the videos are rigged. With a shotgun, you don’t necessarily have to put the center of the pattern in a vital place. The pellets will go in different directions in the body, so presumably, you can expect probability to be on your side. If nine pellets enter and separate, one or two are likely to hit something important. At least you would think so. And the entry wound should be huge and bloody compared to the entry would made by a pistol round, which tends to make a little tear that closes up on its own.
Pistols are easier to control in theory, but that doesn’t seem to pan out in actual encounters caught on video. I can shoot a man in the eye at 7 yards, over and over, IF he’s not moving and the light is good. In a problem situation, I’ll be shooting 6″ groups, at best. With a shotgun, that might open up to 12″, but again, you have more lead, bigger wounds, and more trajectories, so aren’t you still way ahead?
So maybe a pistol-grip shotgun is a good thing to have in a vehicle. It’s compact, it’s lethal, it’s as accurate in practice as a pistol…what’s not to love? The Box o’ Truth says 00 will penetrate cars, so it sounds like it ought to go through any cover you are likely to have to worry about on the street.
I need to take the Saiga to a range and shoot it without using the buttstock so I can find out. If it works, forget pistols.
I have to get over the idea that pistols are okay for self-defense. They’re a whole lot better than nothing, but most pistol shots miss, and the ballistics are generally pathetic. I have to make myself think of pistols as what they are: something to keep me alive until I can get to a long gun (paraphrasing Col. Jeff Cooper).
May 27th, 2010 at 1:17 PM
From everything I’ve seen and read: yes, .45 or .38 Super or .40S&W are better than 9mm. HOWEVER, the biggest factor is shot placement; a solid hit or two in the vitals with a 9mm beats a peripheral hit with anything else. Of course, you could carry a .357 revolver, last I heard that with 125-grain hollowpoints still has the best 1-shot stop record. But putting the shot in the right place is still the biggest single factor.
The above all involving the use of premium hollowpoints, of course.
On the scattergun, I’m second to none in my respect for it as a close-range fight-stopper, but if you use a pistol grip have it as part of a folding or collapsing stock, and only use it grip-only in shooting if no other choice, you really do lose a LOT of control without the stock.
The line I once read is “A pistol is to fight your way to a shotgun, which is to fight your way to a rifle”. All have their place, but a pistol is the one you can have with you almost always.
May 27th, 2010 at 1:21 PM
With the right ammo selection, I don’t think 9mm generally has a problem sealing the deal… at least not any more than any other pistol does.
Pistols are not rifles. There is no guaranteed stop.
That said, I do love the 10mm; and like both the .40 and the .357 sig. The .357 sig is also much disrespected, but a LOT of state police agencies have switched to it, because of its superior wounding capability vs both 9mm and .40, and it’s FAR superior barrier penetrating perfromance.
Of course some people turn that around and say “well then it will overpenetrate”… No more so than .357 magnum, and probably a bit less; and no-one complains about snubby .357s.
And Glock not only does both .357 sig and 10mm, but makes the most popular and best selling guns in both chamberings… Though I prefer mine in a SIG 229 and a 1911 respectively (I carry a custom 1911 in 10mm frequently).
May 27th, 2010 at 2:11 PM
At the Men’s fellowship and Shoot ’em Up last year (I love my church), my son brought his Mossberg 12ga pump with pistol grip and we shot skeet with it. That’s accurate enough for me.
As for pistols, I’m sure you’re aware of the Taurus Judge.
And an Airweight 357 is only five shots. But they are .357 +p. The downsize is remembering you have it.
I don’t ever want to have to memorize the 1911 safety drill in a pinch.
Pull, shoot.
That said, I carry a Kahr 9mm. Anything is better than nothing. And I’d like a carry .45. But I’m still catching up on ammo, much less a new gun…
May 27th, 2010 at 3:07 PM
The Glock 10mm is looking very tempting, and I already have a reloading die set.
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I’m starting to think the best way to go is to carry 10mm and keep an AK pistol under the rear seat. Put a front pistol grip and a laser on the AK, and it’s party time. And if it gets ripped off, I’m only out 400 bucks.
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I am tempted to put a laser on the .38 Super for church carry. It’s such a formal gun! It would be especially nice with a 9mm x 23 barrel.
May 27th, 2010 at 3:09 PM
“HOWEVER, the biggest factor is shot placement; a solid hit or two in the vitals with a 9mm beats a peripheral hit with anything else.”
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Thing is, I shoot the more powerful guns just as accurately as the 9mm. Maybe reacquisition would be harder with a 10mm.
May 27th, 2010 at 4:34 PM
“Six hits with a .22 beat a near miss with a .44 Magnum every time!”
We all hear the horror stories of the guy who just won’t drop.
Nobody hears much about the hundreds of people who die after one or two shots with a .22,.25, .32, .380 pick one.
The whole caliber arguement is semantics.
A bigger gun won’t make you more lethal.
Reliably hitting your target will.
May 27th, 2010 at 5:31 PM
Glock does make a 40. Not sure there is a hapenworth of difference practically. I always thought that was bench blather.
Cops are not using expanding CorBon – most depts require FMJ.
And if you can kill a hog with a 9mm, you are quite some shot!
-XC
May 27th, 2010 at 6:20 PM
1. Most people don’t handle themselves very well the first time or two they get in a fight.
2. You can have the super duper, all-world weapon and ammo and it will do you little good if you are not in the fight.
3. The pros may spend large amounts of their budgets on weapons mods, but they all know there is only one deadly weapon.
4. It’s not something you can find in a gun store.
5. Train yourself and don’t worry so much about what’s in your hands.
6. Your attitude and experience are what is going to win for you.
V/R JWest
May 27th, 2010 at 6:51 PM
“Cops are not using expanding CorBon – most depts require FMJ.”
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I can understand the military wanting to wound instead of killing, but it seems odd for the cops to use inferior ammunition on purpose.
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“And if you can kill a hog with a 9mm, you are quite some shot!”
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If you’re using a big gun you love to kill hogs, I hate to tell you this: down here, the Cubans use a .22 LR. I talked to the guy who works on my dad’s boat, because I was wondering if my .50 AE was a good choice, and he told me he and his kid use a .22.
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“A bigger gun won’t make you more lethal.”
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1. A gun with better stopping power is not necessarily bigger. The .357 beats the .45, for example.
2. A gun with more stopping power will definitely make you more lethal, unless it magically makes you place your shots badly. This is too obvious to argue about.
May 27th, 2010 at 8:11 PM
At about the energy level of a medium-power rifle, you start to get this mysterious effect where the shootee just falls down and dies. Probably what happens there is a spinal concussion, with the spine being slammed by tissue displaced from the temporary cavity. At typical handgun energy levels, this doesn’t happen, and “stopping power” is not a meaningful term. There’s no way to measure it. The studies which have purported to do so are junk. They’ve used falsified data and failed to control multiple variables.
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More energetic rounds generally make bigger holes, so they have a marginal advantage with regard to hitting something vital. But it’s only a marginal advantage. There’s a real advantage to a bigger gun, but it’s not that it’s much deadlier. Shot placement remains crucial.
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There has been respectable science done by the “jello junkies” at places like Firearms Tactical Institute. They understand terminal ballistics and wounding mechanisms. I think they make a basic mistake, however: they are committed to achieving what they call a “physiological stop” on an assailant. If you shoot the bad guy and he just gives up, that’s just a “psychological stop” and it doesn’t count because the guy could still hurt you if he had a mind to. So everything is about optimizing your chances of hitting a major blood-bearing organ (which takes at least a minute to achieve the phys. stop), or directly disrupting the CNS.
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Thing is, if you take Firearms Tactical’s philosophy to its logical conclusion, then there’s only a narrow marginal advantage to using, say, a .45 instead of a .32 ACP hardball. After all, the .32 penetrates just as far, and kills you just as dead. But we know that can’t be right, albeit in an anecdotal, non-scientific way.
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My guess is, the vast majority of stops are psychological stops, even in cases where the shootee subsequently dies. You’re not likely to achieve a timely kill with a handgun, but one or two shots to the trunk will probably win the fight anyway, when the goblin decides he’d rather just lie down and be mellow. And I think the odds of a psychological stop are related to muzzle energy. The harder you hit a bad guy, the bigger a temporary cavity you put in him, the more likely he’ll feel sick and tired of the whole thing. Of course, some attackers never give up. The phys. stop is the only sure way. But most gunfights are won without it.
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Various real gunfighters, including Wild Bill Hickok, advocate the gut shot. The chest shot is deadlier after a minute or two, but the gut shot takes the fight out of your assailant right away. So they say.
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Some good points on this thread: there is no magic bullet; shot placement is important; the thing that wins the fight is you. Gunfight training, where you learn to move and use cover and reload and shoot from all positions and shoot moving targets and so on, is probably the biggest edge you can get.
May 27th, 2010 at 8:13 PM
Most defensive shooting is 5 to 20 feet, the distance across a room. For that a .40 has too much bark and velocity in my opinion which is why my home defense choice is a 1911 with plain lead wadcutters. Cheap, available as reloads and plenty of wallop. Aiming simply by “line of arm” and at these distances will pretty much put every shot in a 10 inch circle. Then again, a shotgun behind the door to your bedroom is a good backup. The .40 on the range is a hoot though, good for target shooting and draws everyone to see what makes such a loud report!
May 27th, 2010 at 9:43 PM
“A gun with more stopping power will definitely make you more lethal unless it magically makes you place your shots badly.”
I will choose a .308 rifle over a .223 rifle everytime because I can shoot a .308 as well under pressure as I can a .223
In the case of a handgun I will choose a 9mm over a .44 Magnum because I can place my shots far better under pressure with the lighter recoiling 9mm.
There is no magic involved. What is involved is skill level.
If you feel you can control a larger caliber under pressure and feel you can deal with the additional weight and bulk while concealed carrying then by all means choose to do so.
May 27th, 2010 at 9:48 PM
It’s easy to claim tiny rounds are just as deadly as the .45 and .357 and so on, without presenting any evidence, but it sounds like crap to me, and whether studies are flawed or not, they are not worthless, and they are infinitely better than conjecture. There is a big difference between a 200 ft.lb. round and a 500 ft.lb. round. Energy doesn’t just vanish mysteriously. It has to go somewhere to die, producing physical effects as it does so. Aside from that, the truly sad rounds, like .380 and .32, have major penetration issues. I would hate to find I had been mortally wounded by a criminal who was saved from my well-placed shot by a Zippo in his shirt pocket.
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I don’t buy the idea that a “harder hit” has any real psychological effect. I remember reading one of Ayoob’s books, in which some character who got shot several times in the chest with a .45 said it felt like being stung by bees. I can see how a shotgun would be different, however, since it makes a big nasty hole or group of holes and can amputate a limb.
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I also don’t buy the mysterious rifle effect. The other day, Jim from SOTW told me about a deer he shot from a very short distance. Destroyed the heart, and the deer still ran a long way before it died. I’m sure there are countless examples of people who have survived .30-caliber military-ammunition hits to the chest.
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No one can dispute that shot placement matters. If you have the time to shoot a criminal in the head, it will definitely turn the lights out faster than shooting him in some random part of the trunk. But given that shot placement is uncertain, proven rounds like the .357 and .45 are smarter choices than little rounds. To give an example, if I’m going to miss a criminal’s aorta by two inches, I’d rather miss with a round that has some chance of tearing the aorta up via shock.
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If I were braver, I’d admit that I think a good pistol shot should consider shooting for a criminal’s head. The conventional wisdom says you’ll never hit it, but then 98% of shooters (including cops) are terrible, even on the range, and conventional wisdom is not always applicable to people with exceptional skill. A head is bigger than a heart. If anything, it should be easier to hit.
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I also think shooting for the genitals may be a good idea. It should be possible to create incredible pain and also demoralize the perp beyond description. And if you miss, you may hit a femoral artery or a hip joint or the base of the spine.
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I don’t think big always equals better. I have read that bullets that are too heavy tend to pass through criminals without expanding or breaking up, so you get a clean wound channel which is actually less damaging than a hit from a smaller bullet. If this is true, excess momentum is a real problem. So I would never use my .50 AE for defense purposes, unless I planned to hit someone over the head with it.
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I suspect that a good .22 pistol with a high capacity would be an excellent defense weapon for a skilled marksman, simply because you can pour twelve rounds into an area the size of an orange in two seconds, even while holding the gun with one hand. I don’t think I’d want to be the first to test this theory.
May 27th, 2010 at 9:54 PM
“If you feel you can control a larger caliber under pressure and feel you can deal with the additional weight and bulk while concealed carrying then by all means choose to do so.”
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I bought my first Glock–in .40 S&W–because people claimed the .45 was hard to control. What a mistake. I find the .45 easier to shoot. I think it’s a bad idea to choose a wimpy caliber before you know what you can do with something better. I shoot my .50 AE Desert Eagle very well, so I’m not afraid of a 10mm or .357 Sig. As for weight and bulk, the Glock 10mm is small and handy.
May 27th, 2010 at 10:07 PM
All other things being equal, I’d rather make a big hole than a small one, and my usual carry is a .45acp. But got my daughter a 9mm and the best hollowpoints I could buy for self-defense, and I don’t worry about it; she can handle it better than the .45 for repeat shots, and 9mm Gold Dots or Hornady in the boiler room will do the job.
Personally, instead of an AK pistol keep a carbine in the truck; a light rifle would be more accurate under stress and very effective. Everything’s a tradeoff: not as short as the AK but longer sight radius and better hold.
May 27th, 2010 at 10:10 PM
The AK is appealing because it’s short, holds lots of ammunition, and does much more damage, per round, than any true pistol. If you go to a gun with a buttstock, I think you have to have a longer barrel or pay some sort of federal fee.
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It’s just an idea for a weapon I can carry in a truck; it’s not what I would use at home.
May 28th, 2010 at 12:50 AM
The details of ammunition used in the video are not given, and this could make a significant difference.
Glock 10mm is Model 20, 15 rounds of shooty goodness, and one other, Model 29 maybe, not sure
You can get all you want for $US600.
When I thought there might be a potential eye problem with recoil, I put a pistol grip on my 870, with a steel mag extension and the hollow in the pistol grip filled with lead shot. I can make a crooked sort of happy face with slugs, but since it lives in the locker it’s not a first-10-seconds gun. Yes, it rocks. The 10-second-gun is a 1911 Frankengun with 230grn Golden Saber (dumb name) HPs. Like the farmer’s favorite axe with 2 heads and 3 handles, it changes but is the same.
I shot some bowling pin matches with my .45 1911 and a .38S that I wish I still had, even though the .38S obviously had much less authority clouting the vermin bowling pins. If I were to be faced with a gang of bowling pins, just sayin. Oh, make sure the Saiga is still legal without the stock. Just, y’know.
May 28th, 2010 at 1:01 AM
Forget the 10mm. You may not have a problem handling high power loads, but the people standing down the block from the person you just shot through would. And foot-pounds out the back of your opponent won’t do anything to stop him.
10mm = .41 magnum hunting load, more or less.
May 28th, 2010 at 6:47 AM
As for a long gun in a vehicle, I’m not a cop. If I can get to a vehicle, unless it’s disabled, I can’t see why I need to get into a prolonged shootout.
May 28th, 2010 at 11:03 AM
“You may not have a problem handling high power loads, but the people standing down the block from the person you just shot through would.”
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I am persuaded by the argument that overpenetration concerns are more hysteria than wisdom. I have never heard or even read about a case in which an innocent bystander was harmed by a bullet that had gone through another person, and even if it happened, it would be capital murder, with the criminal, not me, as the defendant.
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“And foot-pounds out the back of your opponent won’t do anything to stop him.”
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The penetration you get from a 10mm is about like that of a .45, which is an excellent self-defense round. Aside from that, in view of things I’ve been reading, I am starting to think it may be impossible to get too much penetration, as long as the ammunition expands.
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“10mm = .41 magnum hunting load, more or less.”
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It’s the original, non-cropped .40 S&W.
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“If I can get to a vehicle, unless it’s disabled, I can’t see why I need to get into a prolonged shootout.”
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The problem is that just about any gun will shoot right through a car’s side, so it isn’t cover, and while you’re leaving the scene, the criminal may have a lot of time to pour rounds into the vehicle.
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I think preparation for a long shootout is a good idea. How can you have too many bullets?
May 28th, 2010 at 1:23 PM
r.e. AK handgun:
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Vertical foregrip on a handgun = NFA weapon, i.e. this is illegal unless you get the tax stamp / go through the signoff process.
May 28th, 2010 at 3:13 PM
I have a true “overpenetration ” story for you.
Two kids break into a mans boathouse.
He hears the commotion, arms himself with a .40 caliber Glock pistol, calls the cops and goes to see whats what. He thinks it is a raccoon or possom. He starts to look around and finds two lads hiding under a worktable, he yells out to them that he is armed and would like them to come out, immediately. They do come out from under the table but instead of complying with the owners wish to surrender and wait for Police both start cussing the man and begin to look for something they can use as weapons which they find in a couple of boat poles.
Three times he tells the lads to stop as they are advancing while telling him he hasn’t the stones to pull the trigger. At fifteen feet he fires one shot which completely penetrates the leading lad and hits the lad three feet behind the leading lad.
The first lad is gravely injured but will survive to serve time, the rear guard lad dies at the scene from a bullet to the throat.
These were not skinny boys but large well developed teenage males.
It is rare but it does happen, no charges were filed against the boathouse owner.
May 28th, 2010 at 4:02 PM
Did I read you correctly that you have shot 10mm Glocks, or misunderstand that?
FWIW I have fired both 10mm and .45 Glocks, and I though the former had a hell of a lot more recoil. Now, admittedly, I have small hands, but the web of my thumb felt a lot more beat up after firing 10mm. YMMV of course. Try to get plenty of practice with both guns if possible before buying one. (You’re probably more likely to do it anyway than most people would.)
May 28th, 2010 at 4:13 PM
That boathouse story isn’t about dangerous, overpowered rounds. It’s about saving money on ammunition.
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I’m not worried about 10mm recoil. After the .50 AE, everything feels like a squirt gun.
May 28th, 2010 at 7:41 PM
Wild hog hunting with a .22 LR???? Unless they are hunting with trained dogs that actually hold the pig (they are trained to grab the hog by the ears), those Cubans have some cojones… or no cerebros.
May 29th, 2010 at 10:40 AM
He has been doing it for years. They just find the hog and shoot it. Maybe they’re smaller in Florida.